Australian Politics Forum - Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #165 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:07pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:01pm:

Except of course where people rejected it on moral grounds, despite the economic implications. These theories are fairly new. I doubt the people involved realised they were making their nations rich and powerful by abandoning and banning slavery.

Then there's the likes of Thomas Jefferson (not a Christian) who continued to keep slaves, yet -

'In his writings on American grievances justifying the Revolution, he attacked the British for sponsoring the slave trade to the colonies. In 1778, with Jefferson's leadership, slave importation was banned in Virginia, one of the first jurisdictions worldwide to do so. Jefferson was a lifelong advocate of ending the trade and as President led the effort to criminalize the international slave trade that passed Congress and he signed on March 2, 1807, a few weeks before the British did the same.'

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49155 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #166 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:29pm That was several centuries after the Spanish crown made similar rulings, in the name of Christianty. Emancipation was a long and messy path, not a single event by a single person.
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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #167 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:38pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 3:04pm:

I see. Starving to death isn't much of a motivator to improve your lot eh?

No. We call that a push factor. A pull factor's driven by education and aspiration - the sort of thing you meant when you said British workers exercised their Freeeedom to improve their lot and move to the cities.

Where their living conditions worsened.

It's interesting that you see anyone with an alternative position to your own Freeeedom narrative as a socialist. It's probably not too hard to detect my political-economic influences, but I doubt you'll predict my views.

Funny how some things change and some stay the same. Now the British are escaping back to the country.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 96057 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #168 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:42pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:01pm: I doubt the people involved realised they were making their nations rich and powerful by abandoning and banning slavery. Except the ones in Amerika, who argued just that.
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Ashley

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #169 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 5:44pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 3:04pm:

I see. Starving to death isn't much of a motivator to improve your lot eh?

No. We call that a push factor. A pull factor's driven by education and aspiration - the sort of thing you meant when you said British workers exercised their Freeeedom to improve their lot and move to the cities.

Where their living conditions worsened.

It's interesting that you see anyone with an alternative position to your own Freeeedom narrative as a socialist. It's probably not too hard to detect my political-economic influences, but I doubt you'll predict my views.

Funny how some things change and some stay the same. Now the British are escaping back to the country.

Given the muslim invader problem they have over there, that is no surprise. I'd say the pull factor of an IQ less than 81 is mighty weak.

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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #170 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:01pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 3:04pm:

I see. Starving to death isn't much of a motivator to improve your lot eh?

No. We call that a push factor. A pull factor's driven by education and aspiration - the sort of thing you meant when you said British workers exercised their Freeeedom to improve their lot and move to the cities.

Here's a tip, if you want to know what I mean, ask me.

Slavery undermines both the push and the pull factor. In fact, I think you are creating a false dichotomy here.

Quote:

It's interesting that you see anyone with an alternative position to your own Freeeedom narrative as a socialist.

I see Gandalf as a socialist, because he is a socialist, and this particular argument appears to be more motivated by socialism than Islam, though both ideologies create an incentive to undermine those "wishy washy western liberal morals".

Quote:

Except the ones in Amerika, who argued just that.

Can you quote them? If so, this theory is older than I thought. Note that morally righteous does not have the same meaning as rich and powerful.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #171 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:07pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:29pm:

That was several centuries after the Spanish crown made similar rulings, in the name of Christianty. Emancipation was a long and messy path, not a single event by a single person.

Interesting that Charles V abolished slavery of Amerindians only after the slavery of Africans to replace the Amerindian slaves had been established.

One of the saddest stories ever told... that a (Christian) Dominican friar having seen the damage done to native Americans by slavery, supported instead the transportation of Africans to take the natives' place as slaves in the new world... This was seen as more just as the Africans were resistant to European diseases and could survive exposure to the sun for longer than the native Americans.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49155 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #172 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:21pm You are failing to see the wood for the trees again North. One bloody minded Friar does not change the fact that Christian society basically brought an end to slavery the world over. If only they had cheerleaders along the way, maybe then you would see it for what it is.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #173 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:37pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

You are failing to see the wood for the trees again North. One bloody minded Friar does not change the fact that Christian society basically brought an end to slavery the world over.

If only they had cheerleaders along the way, maybe then you would see it for what it is.

There has never been a single society in all history that abolished slavery purely on moral grounds where the existence or well-being of the state was at stake as a result of abolition.

Even Abraham Lincoln said if he could preserve the Union by not freeing any slaves, he would do it.

The 'good angels' of human nature that would call a society to abolish slavery would only be heard where the state or its society were not threatened with destruction because of it.

Even the Catholic Church did not formally condemn slavery until the 19th century when, by then, slavery had served its purpose.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49155 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #174 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:43pm Karnal has also suggested that other arguments beside moral ones were put forward at the time. Can you cite them?
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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #175 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:50pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 4:38pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 3:04pm:

I see. Starving to death isn't much of a motivator to improve your lot eh?

No. We call that a push factor. A pull factor's driven by education and aspiration - the sort of thing you meant when you said British workers exercised their Freeeedom to improve their lot and move to the cities.

Here's a tip, if you want to know what I mean, ask me.

No worries, FD. When you said Quote:

They went to the city as free men in search of better paying work

, did you mean:

A) They hopped down to Manchester and London to get a good job with better pay and conditions?
B) They were thrown off the farms their families had lived on for generations and left with no alternative but to move to crowded city slums and beg for a 14 hour day, 6 day week, factory job?

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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #176 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 7:27pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:43pm:

Karnal has also suggested that other arguments beside moral ones were put forward at the time. Can you cite them?

Not only were writers and thinkers arguing against slavery on economic grounds in 19th century America, there were arguments between convict versus free-settler labour in Australia.

Similar arguments were used for slaves as convicts. Settlement in Christian societies would civilize slaves, after a life of honest work, they could - perhaps - earn the chance to gain their freedom, but importantly, their work would contribute to the development of new, free nations. They would tame the land in the new world, and in so doing, they could be made to tame the animal instincts in themselves.

Here, we can see the reflection of lassez faire economic theory, where free trade was a civilizing influence in itself. Work, whether it be picking cotton to make clothes, or tobacco to make lung cancer, was noble in and of itself. Likewise, trade, whether it be in grain for bread or opium to hook Chinese coolies, was similarly civilizing. These two activities - manual labour and business - would lift the new world out of the war, corruption and nepotism of the old European monarchies.

What do you think, FD? Did it work?

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Ashley Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 526	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #177 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:26pm One more post in a row should get FD to log back in for you .
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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #178 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:55pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:43pm:

Karnal has also suggested that other arguments beside moral ones were put forward at the time. Can you cite them?

Not only were writers and thinkers arguing against slavery on economic grounds in 19th century America, there were arguments between convict versus free-settler labour in Australia.

Similar arguments were used for slaves as convicts. Settlement in Christian societies would civilize slaves, after a life of honest work, they could - perhaps - earn the chance to gain their freedom, but importantly, their work would contribute to the development of new, free nations. They would tame the land in the new world, and in so doing, they could be made to tame the animal instincts in themselves.

Here, we can see the reflection of lassez faire economic theory, where free trade was a civilizing influence in itself. Work, whether it be picking cotton to make clothes, or tobacco to make lung cancer, was noble in and of itself. Likewise, trade, whether it be in grain for bread or opium to hook Chinese coolies, was similarly civilizing. These two activities - manual labour and business - would lift the new world out of the war, corruption and nepotism of the old European monarchies.

What do you think, FD? Did it work?

What were these arguments against slavery on economic grounds Karnal?

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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #179 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 9:12pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 7:27pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:43pm:

Karnal has also suggested that other arguments beside moral ones were put forward at the time. Can you cite them?

Not only were writers and thinkers arguing against slavery on economic grounds in 19th century America, there were arguments between convict versus free-settler labour in Australia.

Similar arguments were used for slaves as convicts. Settlement in Christian societies would civilize slaves, after a life of honest work, they could - perhaps - earn the chance to gain their freedom, but importantly, their work would contribute to the development of new, free nations. They would tame the land in the new world, and in so doing, they could be made to tame the animal instincts in themselves.

Here, we can see the reflection of lassez faire economic theory, where free trade was a civilizing influence in itself. Work, whether it be picking cotton to make clothes, or tobacco to make lung cancer, was noble in and of itself. Likewise, trade, whether it be in grain for bread or opium to hook Chinese coolies, was similarly civilizing. These two activities - manual labour and business - would lift the new world out of the war, corruption and nepotism of the old European monarchies.

What do you think, FD? Did it work?

What were these arguments against slavery on economic grounds Karnal?

What do you mean by economic? Adam Smith called himself a moral philosopher. Economics in the 19th century was known as political-economy.

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