MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 9:54am:


Muhammad never made any reference at all to a mosque in modern day Israel. Jerusalem is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Muhammad never actually travelled to Jerusalem, or anywhere near Israel, other than in his mystical "night journey" referred to in Surah 17. Scholars immediately after his death debated whether Surah 17 (now taken to be a reference to the mosque) was a place in heaven or somewhere near Mecca.

Later Caliphs built a wooden mosque somewhere in the area, but no-one knows where.

Eventually Muslims started to link Surah 17 with a mosque at the current location, but this is more a reflection of the effective propaganda by Muslim leaders who wanted to promote the mosque rather than a basis in Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 10:09am:

This is how I know you've never had any religious education or education on the history of religions.

Doesn't stop you farting out an 'opinion', but.

Neither Jesus nor Muhammad advocated for a new religion... You could try Googling it... but it might break your brain.

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Jesus did not advocate for "Christianity" as a formal, distinct religion, nor did he use the term.
As a Jew, Jesus lived, taught, and died within Judaism. He focused on fulfilling the Law of Moses, preaching the Kingdom of God.

On another hand Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as the founder of Islam and was the primary advocate who preached and established its teachings
.

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:12am:

Geez, can't you lot be arsed even Googling reliable religious sources?

Muhammad did not advocate for a new religion. He advocated for a rededication of the children of Ishmael to the laws of Allah as revealed to the prophets, himself included.

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:31am:

Well, you don't... Do you have another way? Buying a book?

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:43am:

Here’s some homework for you…


What were Paul’s thoughts on the miracles??

What did Peter say of them to Paul during the years they traveled together?

What did James say to Paul about Paul’s deviation from the message of ‘the way’?

tallowood wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 11:57am:

They said and did a lot about the site of the al-Aqua mosque… but you wouldn’t know.that…

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 12:00pm:


Stop lying, they talked about Jewish Temple not about al-Aqua mosque.

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Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

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Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

Google AI:


According to Islamic tradition, the Prophet Muhammad traveled from Mecca to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on a winged, horse-like creature called the Buraq during the "Night Journey" (Isra' and Mi'raj) in 621 CE. Upon arriving at the Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif), he tied the Buraq to the Wall, prayed at the site, and then ascended to heaven.

Key details regarding this event include:
The Location: The "farthest mosque" (al-masjid al-aqṣá) is traditionally identified with the entire Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem.


The Ascent: While the journey landed at Al-Aqsa, the specific ascension to heaven (Mi'raj) is commonly associated with the rock located inside the Dome of the Rock, which is part of the same compound.
Significance: The event established Jerusalem as the third holiest city in Islam, as it was the site of this miraculous journey and the first Qibla (direction of prayer).


The Buraq: Described as a white, winged beast, smaller than a mule but larger than a donkey, which carried Muhammad between heaven and earth.


The entire Al-Aqsa compound, including the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Qibli Mosque, holds immense religious significance, representing the location where Muhammad led previous prophets in prayer and ascended through the seven heavens to meet God.

FD,
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Muhammad ascended to heaven from the Al-Aqsa Mosque riding a horse with wings.
That makes it a holy site.

What don't you understand?

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 1:29pm:

I know there is no external cure for idiocy or dunning-Kruger…

Jerusalem was already the major centre of Christendom for 300 years before Muhammad.

It’s significance was well-known to arabs, although it’s almost certain few would have made a pilgrimage there as it was not at the time religiously significant to them.

Christian focus on the city meant that sooner or later a Christian army would move from there into Arabia.

You missed the point completely TGD.

You no longer seem to be telling us what the point is, but you are still no closer to it.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 1:48pm:




Mohammed invented Islam to keep the rabbits out!!

Frank wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:33pm:

He didn't invent Islam; he advocated for the Arabs to dedicate themselves to monotheistic belief, one of the reasons being to unite them as one against the threat of invasion and cultural dominance by another monotheistic people - Christianised Europeans.

Exactly as Constantine had done in Europe 300 years earlier.


Arabs, by Muhammad's time, were well aware of what happens to a people who resisted Christianisation by the western (Roman) and eastern (Byzantine) branches of the religion.

google

The Dome of the Rock was built between 685 and 691/2 C.E. by Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik in Jerusalem to establish a major religious center and mark the triumph of Islam. It was designed to protect the sacred rock (Foundation Stone) on the Temple Mount, believed to be the site of Prophet Muhammad's night journey to heaven.

Key motivations for the construction of the Dome of the Rock included:

Religious Significance:

The site is associated with the Prophet’s Night Journey (al-mi'raj) to heaven, and the rock itself is considered the point from which creation began.

Political Consolidation:

Caliph Abd al-Malik sought to secure his authority during a civil war with rival rulers in Mecca, making Jerusalem a crucial religious center for his supporters.
Rivalry with Other Faiths: The structure was designed to match and even rival the grandeur of nearby Christian, Byzantine-era churches, such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and to assert Islam's status against the older Abrahamic faiths.

Rebuilding Solomon's Temple: It was also seen as a continuation or reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon (Mihrab Dawud) on the Temple Mount.
While often mistaken for a mosque, the Dome of the Rock was originally intended to function as a mashhad, a shrine for pilgrims.

Same motvations  apply to the al-Aqsa mosque.

What is YOUR point?

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And abra cadabra, the mosque he just built is suddenly the one Muhammad referred to in the Quran and the 3rd holiest site in Islam.

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Those prophets created Judaism and Christianity. So Muhammad did the same thing, but did not create Islam?

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Wow. Three pages in and you have already caught up with what I posted in the OP. I should have known you were in speedy mode when you opened by telling everyone what the real point was.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 3:59pm:

Have you thought of what you want to be when you grow up?

No single prophet created Judaism; each is considered to be a continuation of Yahweh's revelations to his chosen people.

No prophet created the religion of Christianity, nor claimed to. Paul considered his Judaism to be the Judaism of the Gentiles.

Muhammad did not create the 'new' religion of Islam. If he'd done so, he would have had to concede that Allah was not Yahweh.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 4:35pm:

Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam.

His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael.

He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother.

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You keep answering your own question.

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No. It was built because it happened to be useful to one of the competing Caliphs in a civil war to 'own' the third holiest site in Islam. Your own evidence. There was absolutely no issue of legitimacy before then. Scholars were happy to argue until they were blue in the face whether it was a reference to a Mosque near Mecca or to a place in heaven. Declaring it to be Jerusalem when it happened to be convenient to the Caliph during a civil war hardly lends legitimacy to the claim.

Meister appears to be arguing that because Muhammad claimed to be revealing the true nature of previous religions, he did not invent Islam. It is yet another of his curious exercises in circular logic. Because we define Islam as a separate religion to Judaism and Christianity, it can't have been invented by Muhammad, because Muhammad (and Muslims to this day, including on this forum) insist it is actually the same religion.

He also appears to be projecting this same belief onto Christianity, though I have never heard a Christian argue that it is actually the same religion as Judaism.

It is actually almost impossible to talk to a Muslim about Judaism or Christianity, because they define those religions out of existence. They will only talk about Muhammad's various "corrections" to those religious beliefs. It comes across as extremely arrogant. It's like trying to talk to Meister about reality, and he asks you to define reality and point to it in the paperwork. But you have no difficulty talking to a Christian about Judaism or Islam.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 5:51pm:



I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian
spreading the words of Jesus but
it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 5:59pm:

It's possible... he was believed to have been in contact with gnostics and monastic priests around the trading routes in Arabia.

The Koran has warm teachings of Jesus and particularly warm teachings of Mary.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 6:21pm:

You see, this is where your arrested development identifies you as stuck at 15.

I can argue this all day... You can only repeat infantile stupid questions in the hope some other poster will take pity on you so you can go for argumentum ad populum.

It's certain that Muhammad was aware of the site of the ancient Jewish temple, its significance to the Abrahamic faith of Judaism, and its desecration by the Romans, then the Christians.

It's certain that he did not make a pilgrimage there physically, which is likely why he proposed the night flight story - to connect him with the heart of the Abrahamic faith, being third only in holiness to Mecca and Medina.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 6:09pm:



Yet under Islamic law if you're a Muslim and declare yourself a Christian -
it's called apostasy and they will execute you after a short trial.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 6:38pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 6:59pm:

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Bobby. wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 7:09pm:

Yes. Jesus' message of strict dedication to the Torah (something like the modern Jewish ultra-Orthodox today) is aligned with Muhammad's thinking... or more accurately, Muhammad's message is aligned with Ishwa's message of devotion to god and keeping the law.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 7:13pm:



Strange how Muslims follow all the old laws of the Torah but hate Jews?

6MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 7:22pm:

Bollocks.


YOU do.

FD,
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He didn't but the followers of Islam did as
it's where Mohammad ascended to heaven on a horse with wings.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 8:23pm:

As I said, you're not intellectually capable of taking on these subjects... I'm not sure what you are intellectually capable of taking on... definitely not religion or geopolitics.

Sure, a 15-year-old with little to no concept of religious traditions can laugh at the absurd claims made in all religions... it takes adult maturity to see them in the context of cultural tradition.

The site of the old Jewish Temple's inner sanctuary - the holy of holies - was deemed to be where Muhammad claimed he flew to during his night flight.

It corresponds in religious significance exactly to where Muhammad claimed he flew from... that's how religious traditions are founded.

Similar to the tradition of the birthplace of Jesus in Bethlehem, even though there is no mention of his birthplace until long after his death... and the site of his crucifixion and burial - not referred to specifically in any text.

And the miracles... even though Paul makes no mention of them... not even the one that Peter (who accompanied Paul), it was later claimed he partook in - the walking on water.

See how religious tradition works?

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 8:47pm:



How could Muhammad claim that when he was dead?   

And this just in...

Even Israeli archeologists now concede that Moses likely did not exist... no Mount Sinai... that the 400 years in Egyptian bondage didn't happen, that the Egyptian Pharaoh lost an army chasing after the Israelites... the 10 plagues... the parting of the Red Sea (or the Sea of Reeds)...

All religious tradition...

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 10^th, 2026 at 9:08pm:


I am not asking for proof. I am asking for a reference. Something someone said. Islam is full of them. That's what Islam is.

Can you tell the difference?

With religious traditions, their truth value has everything in common with argumentum ad populum.

Was the Buddha born in Lambini? Was he a prince?

Was Jesus born in Bethlehem? Is the Church of the Nativity built on the exact site where he was born? Is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre built above his tomb?

Did Abraham almost sacrifice his son, Isaac, where the Dome of the Rock now stands?

The answer to all of these questions, and every one like them, is yes, if the faithful believe it.

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 8:15am:


Here it is again for you Meister:

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

Do you have no evidence to support this claim:

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other than your assertion that it "corresponds" to Mecca?

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Are you backpedalling?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

Do you have no evidence to support this claim:

Quote:


other than your assertion that it "corresponds" to Mecca?

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 7:22pm:

And we have to accept Muslims claims blindly because.....?


Because they will cut our heads off if we dispute the 'final, unalterable, eternal word' of an illiterate meshuggeh.

What a deal!

You buy? Sure you do!!

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 7:38pm:

Christianity is not like Islam. It is not MERELY performative.

Christianity is radically different to both Judaism an Mohamedanism, the latter being a ridiculous, world historical  misunderstanding of Judaism by an illiterate sex fiend.

Kind of ironic that Meister is so eager to point out the absurdity of religion, but holds as gospel truth that Muslims have, since Islam's founding, considered Jerusalem the site of Islam's third most holy place. With zero evidence. Just "it corresponds".

Hard to reconcile the two people.

freediver wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 8:26pm:

Going for argumentum ad populum, eh!

Interesting that you use the term 'gospel truth'. The gospels are riddled with fabrications and verifiable lies... It's a result of your cultural inheritance and ignorance of religious tradition that you'd use the term without irony.

If you mean the truth, as in verifiable truth concluded from hard evidence, then, as I said, ancient religious tradition cannot be verified by hard evidence.

There is no other site that any religious interpretation of Muhammad's night flight could compete with the inner sanctum of the 1st and 2nd Jewish Temples... They even resembled the Kaaba in their geometry...

Frank wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 8:45pm:

Well, now you need to define true for those posters here who don't know of this thing called true, as opposed to... true.

freediver wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 8:59pm:

No, you should know from your own forum advice that argumentum ad populum is about what you want people to believe.

Frank wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 9:19pm:

Yep... That'd be my point, old girl.

Frank wrote on Feb 11^th, 2026 at 9:46pm:

And yet you used the word twice...

Religious tradition is not truth... and yet it's true...

You can't mince around like that on a forum like this... many of us here aren't homosexual, so...

MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 12^th, 2026 at 6:51am:


The scope of science is limited. It has nothing to say about ethical or aesthetic judgement, for example.
Some of the greatest mathematicians, Pascal, Newton, Leibnitz were acutely aware of this. See also Kan's critical volumes on reason, aesthetics and judgement.

In our time Stephen Jay Gould talks about the non-overlapping magisteriums of knolwedge:  facts and values.

Frank wrote on Feb 12^th, 2026 at 10:18am:

The idea of separate, non-overlapping magisteria has a spurious aura about it...

An attempt to elevate religious traditions to the status of truth, or to concoct a species of truth, when many of these traditions, if not all of which, are unverifiable, can be explained by natural phenomena, or are just patently ridiculous.