Australian Politics Forum - al-Aqsa Mosque

MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #165 - Feb 17^th, 2026 at 11:49am

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2026 at 11:41am:

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Religious traditions are the final authorities of what their respective founders said and did.

Does the Islamic tradition include anything that Muhammad actually said? Or supposedly said, if you want to be pedantic about it? What exactly is the distinction you are trying to make here?

How can you be so certain that Muhammad described it as the al aqsa mosque without such a quote?

You see how your developmental disorder is a lifelong affliction?

I've educated you multiple times on this...

I can be certain because Islamic religious tradition says Muhammad identified al-Aqsa Mosque as the site of the Jewish Temple Mount and one of the holiest sites.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #166 - Feb 17^th, 2026 at 11:59am

I am not aware of any Islamic tradition that says Muhammad claimed to be praying to the Al Aqsa Mosque before they started praying to Mecca. The only reference I am aware of that is attributed to Muhammad is in the night journey, which does not identify a location for the Al Aqsa mosque. That came much later. There is an Islamic tradition that Muslim scholars at the time of Muhammad debated whether the Al Aqsa mosque was either somewhere in the vicinity of Mecca or in heaven.

"Islamic tradition" consists largely of direct quotes: Muhammad said this or that, or one of his companions said this or that about what Muhammad did. "Islamic tradition" itself does not say these things in a vague omnipresent sense, it is the collection of the quotes.

Are you just making it all up as you go along? It's almost like you are doing what Muhammad did - trying to invent your own version of Islam, with everyone else thinking your interpretation is juvenile and ignorant. There are huge volumes of references to what Muhammad actually said and did, which Muslims and Islamic scholars are fairly anal about referring to, but you expect us to take your word for it, with the only evidence you are able to present being a vague claim about it "corresponding".

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« Last Edit: Feb 17^th, 2026 at 12:05pm by freediver »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #167 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 9:54am

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2026 at 11:59am:

Are you just making it all up as you go along? It's almost like you are doing what Muhammad did - trying to invent your own version of Islam, with everyone else thinking your interpretation is juvenile and ignorant. There are huge volumes of references to what Muhammad actually said and did, which Muslims and Islamic scholars are fairly anal about referring to, but you expect us to take your word for it, with the only evidence you are able to present being a vague claim about it "corresponding".

All religions develop traditions about their founder and other key persons... Christianity is littered with them, as is Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism...

Exacerbating this, with ancient religions, are the multiple mistranslations and interpolations over centuries, which generally embellish original texts.

Then there is enforced orthodoxy, where 'heretical' texts not in line with their respective mandated narratives are forbidden to be disseminated, taught, or even read, and required to be destroyed.

It doesn't take much mindpower to understand this.

What we are left with is largely what the current surviving traditions say of their respective founders and dogma, short of access to contemporary secular or non-aligned scribes' writings, e.g., Flavius Josephus... and even then their writings are also subject to alteration over centuries...

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52906 At my desk.	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #168 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:33pm Quote: All religions develop traditions This is exactly my point. The 'Al Aqsa' mosque in Jerusalem is about as close to Muhammad as Santa Claus is to Jesus. Unfortunately Muslims also have developed a tradition of killing anyone who gets in their way. Or at least trying to. That one does date back to Muhammad.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #169 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:44pm

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

All religions develop traditions

This is exactly my point. The 'Al Aqsa' mosque in Jerusalem is about as close to Muhammad as Santa Claus is to Jesus. Unfortunately Muslims also have developed a tradition of killing anyone who gets in their way. Or at least trying to. That one does date back to Muhammad.

Al Aqsa in Jerusalem is as close to Muhammad as Islamic tradition says it is.

Religious-inspired killing is part of most religious traditions. Christianity only largely gave it up relatively very recently, before which they slaughtered 'Pagans', Jews, heretics, Muslims, Africans, non-Christian Asians, native South Americans... in their millions over centuries... in the name of 'Christ'.

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Frank

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #170 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 8:30pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

All religions develop traditions

This is exactly my point. The 'Al Aqsa' mosque in Jerusalem is about as close to Muhammad as Santa Claus is to Jesus. Unfortunately Muslims also have developed a tradition of killing anyone who gets in their way. Or at least trying to. That one does date back to Muhammad.

Al Aqsa in Jerusalem is as close to Muhammad as Islamic tradition says it is.

Religious-inspired killing is part of most religious traditions. Christianity only largely gave it up relatively very recently, before which they slaughtered 'Pagans', Jews, heretics, Muslims, Africans, non-Christian Asians, native South Americans... in their millions over centuries... in the name of 'Christ'.

Religiously motivated mass murder is baked into Islam.

It's called jihad. For world domination.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #171 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 9:16pm

Frank wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 8:30pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

All religions develop traditions

This is exactly my point. The 'Al Aqsa' mosque in Jerusalem is about as close to Muhammad as Santa Claus is to Jesus. Unfortunately Muslims also have developed a tradition of killing anyone who gets in their way. Or at least trying to. That one does date back to Muhammad.

Al Aqsa in Jerusalem is as close to Muhammad as Islamic tradition says it is.

Religious-inspired killing is part of most religious traditions. Christianity only largely gave it up relatively very recently, before which they slaughtered 'Pagans', Jews, heretics, Muslims, Africans, non-Christian Asians, native South Americans... in their millions over centuries... in the name of 'Christ'.

Religiously motivated mass murder is baked into Islam.

It's called jihad. For world domination.

As it was in Christianity for almost all of its 2000 years...

Called many things, like Holy War and Crusade... for world domination.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #172 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 9:17pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

All religions develop traditions

This is exactly my point. The 'Al Aqsa' mosque in Jerusalem is about as close to Muhammad as Santa Claus is to Jesus. Unfortunately Muslims also have developed a tradition of killing anyone who gets in their way. Or at least trying to. That one does date back to Muhammad.

Al Aqsa in Jerusalem is as close to Muhammad as Islamic tradition says it is.

Sounds like circular logic to me. Who says what "Islamic tradition" is? According to you, it is Islamic tradition. Does it have to be an actual tradition, or a newly invented one?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #173 - Apr 18^th, 2026 at 9:23pm

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 9:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:44pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2026 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

All religions develop traditions

This is exactly my point. The 'Al Aqsa' mosque in Jerusalem is about as close to Muhammad as Santa Claus is to Jesus. Unfortunately Muslims also have developed a tradition of killing anyone who gets in their way. Or at least trying to. That one does date back to Muhammad.

Al Aqsa in Jerusalem is as close to Muhammad as Islamic tradition says it is.

Sounds like circular logic to me. Who says what "Islamic tradition" is? According to you, it is Islamic tradition. Does it have to be an actual tradition, or a newly invented one?

Islamic tradition is what Muslims say it is.

There are a multitude of Christian equivalents... like, say, Jesus' birth in Bethlehem, that Mary had only one child, that the Census of Quirinius required families to relocate to the birthplace of the father, that the trial before Pilate was recorded verbatim, despite that none of his followers were there, nor was it recorded by Roman scribes.

All Christian tradition... believed to be true by Christians today.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #174 - Apr 19^th, 2026 at 6:58am

Quote:

Islamic tradition is what Muslims say it is.

So if Muslims say it is a historical fact that Jerusalem has always been considered the site of the Al Aqsa Mosque, it becomes a historical fact? Are you allowed to discuss the difference between what Muslims claim about history and the historical evidence, like you seem capable of with other religions, or are you afraid of offending someone?

Do you think that Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective? Or is that something you are not allowed to think about either, forcing you to treat all their beliefs as some kind of black box of inconceivable origins?

Quote:

There are a multitude of Christian equivalents... like, say, Jesus' birth in Bethlehem

Are you saying there is historical evidence to the contrary? Where do you think he was born?

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« Last Edit: Apr 19^th, 2026 at 7:39am by freediver »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #175 - Apr 19^th, 2026 at 8:34am

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2026 at 6:58am:

Quote:

Islamic tradition is what Muslims say it is.

So if Muslims say it is a historical fact that Jerusalem has always been considered the site of the Al Aqsa Mosque, it becomes a historical fact? Are you allowed to discuss the difference between what Muslims claim about history and the historical evidence, like you seem capable of with other religions, or are you afraid of offending someone?

Do you think that Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective? Or is that something you are not allowed to think about either, forcing you to treat all their beliefs as some kind of black box of inconceivable origins?

Quote:

There are a multitude of Christian equivalents... like, say, Jesus' birth in Bethlehem

Are you saying there is historical evidence to the contrary? Where do you think he was born?

Religions are based on a mix of likely historical facts, traditions and faith. Religious traditions develop over centuries. The Al Aqsa tradition has been part of Islam for nearly 1000 years.

Some equivalents in Christian history are: the specific birthplace of Jesus in Bethlehem and the specific site of his tomb in Jerusalem.

On his birth in Bethlehem. There is almost universal consensus among biblical scholars that Jesus was born in Nazareth, where his family was located. The Bethlehem tradition is dated to near the turn of the first century, as the nascent Christian church began associating Jesus with King David as closely as possible, who was born in Bethlehem. The writer of Luke used the Census of Quirinius (in 6AD) to move the family from Nazareth to Bethlehem by claiming Rome required all families to relocate back to the birth town of the family's father. Not only was there no Roman requirement for this to happen, but Jesus would already have been nearly 10 years old at the Census.

However, Christian religious tradition has Jesus born in Bethlehem, and so, for believing Christians, he was.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #176 - Apr 19^th, 2026 at 10:10am

Quote:

The Al Aqsa tradition has been part of Islam for nearly 1000 years.

I am not talking about the Al Aqsa tradition in general. That obviously dates to Muhammad, who used the term. Are you really having that much difficulty figuring out what I am talking about?

If Muslims say it is a historical fact that Jerusalem has always been considered the site of the Al Aqsa Mosque, does it become a historical fact? Are you allowed to discuss the difference between what Muslims claim about history and the historical evidence, like you seem capable of with other religions, or are you afraid of offending someone? All you seem to permit yourself is to parrot the phrase that Islamic tradition defines what Islamic tradition is, which in turn defines what Islamic tradition is. But the link with reality eludes you, as if you are deliberately trying to define it out of existence, or are somehow oblivious to it.

Why?

Do you think that Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective? Or is that something you are not allowed to think about either, forcing you to treat all their beliefs as some kind of black box of inconceivable origins? I can assure you that the necessity of a link to reality is just as important to Muslims, perhaps even more so, than to everyone else. I have seen them place great emphasis on it.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #177 - Apr 19^th, 2026 at 10:24am

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2026 at 10:10am:

Quote:

The Al Aqsa tradition has been part of Islam for nearly 1000 years.

I am not talking about the Al Aqsa tradition in general. That obviously dates to Muhammad, who used the term. Are you really having that much difficulty figuring out what I am talking about?

If Muslims say it is a historical fact that Jerusalem has always been considered the site of the Al Aqsa Mosque, does it become a historical fact? Are you allowed to discuss the difference between what Muslims claim about history and the historical evidence, like you seem capable of with other religions, or are you afraid of offending someone? All you seem to permit yourself is to parrot the phrase that Islamic tradition defines what Islamic tradition is, which in turn defines what Islamic tradition is. But the link with reality eludes you, as if you are deliberately trying to define it out of existence, or are somehow oblivious to it.

Why?

Do you think that Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective? Or is that something you are not allowed to think about either, forcing you to treat all their beliefs as some kind of black box of inconceivable origins? I can assure you that the necessity of a link to reality is just as important to Muslims, perhaps even more so, than to everyone else. I have seen them place great emphasis on it.

I think you are having difficulty figuring out what you are talking about.

For secularists and the non-aligned, no religious tradition can just become a historical fact by fiat. For believers, it can.

Where there are contradictions between historical fact and religious tradition, for believers of any religion, religious tradition generally trumps historical fact.

To complicate matters, where religious traditions conflict, the result is often schism within the religion itself, e.g. the Sunni-Shia divide, the Roman Catholic-Eastern Orthodox divide, the Catholic Protestant divide and the Protestant-Protestant divide.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #178 - Apr 19^th, 2026 at 11:23am

Quote:

For secularists and the non-aligned, no religious tradition can just become a historical fact by fiat.

This seems to be a common theme with you Meister. An unwillingness to discuss or even acknowledge reality. But for some reason you are more than happy to point out the distinction between historical fact and religious tradition for other religions. Is it only Islam that you apply this peculiar logic to?

Quote:

Where there are contradictions between historical fact and religious tradition, for believers of any religion, religious tradition generally trumps historical fact.

Do you think that Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective? Or is that something you are not allowed to think about either, forcing you to treat all their beliefs as some kind of black box of inconceivable origins? I can assure you that the necessity of a link to reality is just as important to Muslims, perhaps even more so, than to everyone else. I have seen them place great emphasis on it.

And just to ward off another pointless lecture, I am not asking about other religions. I am asking about Islam.

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« Last Edit: Apr 19^th, 2026 at 11:47am by freediver »

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #179 - Apr 19^th, 2026 at 11:49am

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2026 at 11:23am:

Quote:

For secularists and the non-aligned, no religious tradition can just become a historical fact by fiat.

This seems to be a common theme with you Meister. An unwillingness to discuss or even acknowledge reality. But for some reason you are more than happy to point out the distinction between historical fact and religious tradition for other religions. Is it only Islam that you apply this peculiar logic to?

Quote:

Where there are contradictions between historical fact and religious tradition, for believers of any religion, religious tradition generally trumps historical fact.

Do you think that Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective? Or is that something you are not allowed to think about either, forcing you to treat all their beliefs as some kind of black box of inconceivable origins? I can assure you that the necessity of a link to reality is just as important to Muslims, perhaps even more so, than to everyone else. I have seen them place great emphasis on it.

You're having a lot of trouble with this, and I'm guessing you were raised as a secularist with no formative cultural experience or education in traditional religious practise or belief.

Historical fact and religious tradition are both components of human experience (i.e., perception of reality), to those with a formative religious upbringing, that form mindset, belief and opinion. It's why people can be prepared to die for their faith.

Of course Muslims consider historical facts and historical records relevant to a claim's legitimacy from an Islamic perspective.

However, if they conflict with established religious tradition, then religious tradition generally trumps both historical facts or their likelihood. For example, Muslims believe that the angel Gabriel appeared to Muhammad and gave him religious instruction. Christian traditions make similar claims relative to Jesus, his birth, life, death and resurrection.

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