Re lee's Benjamin Franklin quote (in #176), namely:

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. —I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.

The problem is lee - following the Conservative line that "taxes are an impost on "aspiration" and "wealth creation"  - doesn't tell us how government can play its role in "leading or driving them out of it".

I agree with Franklin: the US government shouldn't be funding food stamps for the poor ie "making them easy in poverty", it should be ensuring access to work, and subsidizing low-paid work with free treasury-issued money if necessary.

Hence the MMT 'Job Guarantee'. 

lee wrote on Oct 30^th, 2025 at 3:57pm:


Your confusion is astounding.

Have a look at the recent pages of the MMT thread; governments are falling like 10-pins because public debt is ballooning and governments can't 'balance their budgets.

The sad thing is public debt - unlike private debt - doesn't matter; eg, the US, UK, and France just need to abandon "austerity",  and keep more of their electors contented.

As for individual debt:
MMT addresses the macroeconomy and the role of government, not your household budget.

Nevertheless  MMT shows the government's debt is the private sector's savings....whether YOU have any savings (or debt) or not.   

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How does  ensuring access to work jack up the price of energy?

A fully-employed workforce increases collective economic wellbeing, by directing public resources from police, courts, prisons, hospitals, to education, housing, and more functional families.

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Yet you won't consider WHY Limbaugh changed his mind.

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The point is it SHOULD be.

Enjoy your dysfunctional  democracy, while the Americans who are living paycheck to paycheck are getting nervous as the shut down drags on (due to dispute re spending and debt); and increasing inequality as Musk is nearing  $1 trillion in personal wealth.   

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Actually Oz personal debt is higher than  Swedish personal debt; and Oz has a housing crisis..... beware of a housing bust if unemployment rises in Oz - it's not the government debt which will crash the economy, see the GFC.   

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Good to see you doing your own research.

The JG 'community service' job is a (temporary) backstop job for anyone who can't find a job in the regular (private or public) sector job market, usually due to the cyclical nature of private-sector business activity.

The JG offers an above poverty wage which is the minimum wage in the economy, replacing destructive (for the individual) poverty level 'welfare'.

As Franklin said: "lead the poor out of poverty"....ie, don't support them to merely lanquish IN poverty.

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Unlike bondholders choosing secure returns on the government tit, the unemployed on 'welfare' are FORCED onto the government tit, as the government provides just enough poverty level 'welfare' to avoid a violent uprising among the unemployed - as per the hideous NAIRU dogma of orthodox Neoclassical  economics. 

As for the government tit, it is only needed because government itself is forced onto the private sector's tit (by taxing or selling bonds to rich people/institutions) in order to promote the general welfare (because it's not the private sector's  task to engender the general welfare). 

See 'Public Money: Public Good'.

.....

Listening to 'elder statesman' John Anderson giving a Boyer lecture on the ABC: he is bemoaning the loss of faith in democractic functioning around the world (my very point), but when he started blaming governments for "excessive borrowing...which will wreck future generations***....."; blimey, time to press the 'off' button, to avoid having to listen to another mainstream economic ignoramus.

*** failure to invest in public infrastructure NOW will harm the prospects of future generations.

lee wrote on Oct 31^st, 2025 at 2:00pm:


Correct. A currency-issuer doesn't have a debt problem, by definition.

The issue for government is how to avoid inflation: Milton Friedman's famous remark: "inflation is always a  monetary problem" contained 2 errors.

1. He asserted all new money  is created by government  - 90% of new money is created in private banks when they lend money to credit-worthy customers.

2. Excess demand for available resources is the problem to be solved, not restriction of money supply which only inhibits economic growth.

   
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No, that's a bad thing.

Just to remind you: I'm arguing for a c-i government to fund itself; and citizens are free to borrow if they can convince a bank manager to grant them a loan.

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You missed the point: government deficits and debt, ie, when total taxes are lower than government spending) are the private sector's total surplus (savings).

While some private sector citizens/instituitons/companies have savings, others are in debt. 

Whereas government surpluses, ie when total taxes are higher than government spending, are the private sector's deficits (debt) overall. 

Again, some private sector citizens/institutions/companies have savings, others are in debt. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 30^th, 2025 at 9:57pm:


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Correct again - twice so far in one post, a record for you.....

So renewables need government subsidies - at no cost to taxpayers (per MMT).   

But of course you diverted from the question: how does ensuring access to work jackup the price - EITHER of renewables, or fossil-based energy? 


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As noted above, essential economic activity can (and must) be maintained, preferably including a guarantee of employment, regardless of the cost of energy.

If nations MUST transition to (initially more expensive) renewables, then treasury-issued money, not taxapyer money will be required to fund the transition because taxpayers and businesses can't afford the $trillion cost of the transition. 

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Er - we all need to work to prosper, hence the need for a Job Guarantee.

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Er - if we are all employed and prospering, then crime, ill health and general social dysfunction are much reduced. 


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I'm asserting he changed his mind because he followed the MMT debate in Congress, and wanted to assist Trump's low tax policies; there is no other reason why a Conservative would change his mind on such a fundmental Conservative doctrine as 'balanced government budgets' via low taxes AND lower spending - the cause of the the current US government dysfunction.

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Indeed: "it's the economy, stupid"

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See lee's gruesome Conservative brain: he sees Musk's aspirations to be a $trillionare, while taking food stamps from 40 million poor people - who are poor  because of a dysfunctional NAIRU/below poverty minimum wage Neoclassical economy, as a positive.

Note: everyone is "allowed" to have aspirations....

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Governments following the deregulation mantra of extremist free enterprise goons; and as for the "ninja loans":

(google)

"The largest money lenders during the Global Financial Crisis (GFC) included major investment banks like Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and Goldman Sachs, along with large commercial banks such as JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, and Citigroup.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:



That's your definition.

"Consider that the UK has only recently started paying off a consolidated loan as part of a redemption of multiple bond programs spanning back 300 years. They include bonds issued during the 1720 South Sea Bubble financial crisis, the 1815 Battle of Waterloo, the Crimean War against Russia in the mid-1850s and bonds issued during the First World War.

It is a salutary lesson. While COVID may be forgotten decades from now, the pandemic will likely live on for future generations of taxpayers as governments slowly pay off their accrued liabilities."

https://intheblack.cpaaustralia.com.au/economy/implications-of-excessive-governm...

Why would governments have to slowly pay off debts?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:



Ah, no care nor responsibility taken by government. Got it.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


Again, no care nor responsibility taken  by government.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


And yet the renwables are causing increased energy costs, that is why government "hand out" energy subsidies to taxpayers. So it is being paid for twice.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:



Because there are a diminishing number of jobs in manufacturing, forcing them on the government tit.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


And yet manufacturing is an essential activity, it is being reduced. Manufacturing is not getting these subsidies.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


Work as in a proper job or a pretend government job?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


Ah, All work? And in what country is that occurring?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


So no evidence then. Merely assertions. thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:



And the econonmy IS politics, Right , got it.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:



Except if they exceed some unascertained level.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:25pm:


Indeed and they onsold as much as they could to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, in collateralised loans. Backed by...?  The government.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:44pm:



Except for the ballooning debt.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:44pm:


And? We should all pay for it?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 4^th, 2025 at 12:44pm:



Oops. So you CAN bankrupt the tax[payers.

They've come out in the millions to protest against the rapist and convicted felon who was best friends with Epstein.

Trump's about as popular as a pork fritter is a synagogue.

BOSTON, MA — Dozens of significant injuries have been reported at the "No Kings" rally today after a multi-scooter pileup as the protest crossed Tremont Street.

Nearby trauma centers were reportedly inundated with patients who had suffered broken hips and femurs due to the collision. Area hospitals were also dealing with a mass wave of rallygoers suffering various levels of bowel and urinary incontinence.

"It's old-person Armageddon out here," said emergency physician Lee Bockelman. "There are shattered hips and leaking bladders everywhere. I've never seen anything like that. They don't train you for this kind of mass casualty event."

Healthcare officials accused rally organizers of negligence, stating that no one had considered the risks of having so many elderly people attempt to march through the streets. "I've never seen this many geriatrics concentrated in such a small area. What were they thinking?" said nurse Julia Mendoza. "There is pee, poo, and busted hips as far as the eye can see. We're getting overwhelmed."

At publishing time, the Chicago "No Kings" rally was shut down after several injuries were reported in a brutal collision of walkers on tennis balls.

Huge crowds have rallied against US President Donald Trump from coast to coast in what organisers hoped would be the largest single-day protest in US history.

Demonstrators have been venting their fury over what they see as Mr Trump's authoritarian style of governing, his hardline immigration polices and the war with Iran.

More than 3,200 events are planned in all 50 states and several cities outside the US, including London, Paris and Rome.