Australian Politics Forum - Hijab, a symbol of oppression.

Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #120 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:32am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 9:32am:

Frank wrote on Oct 7^th, 2022 at 9:20pm:

I am not restricting them

Strawman.

We all know how you cynically champion western values for the sole purpose of denigrating non-westerners/non-whites. Of course we are well aware of your hypocricy - that you would only ever use these values to feign outrage at rights violations imposed by brown people - and that it would never ever extend to criticising other forms of rights violations - like the French hijab and burqa bans. Your *ACTUAL* views on western liberal views on freedom are perfectly articulated in my signature - so lets not pretend that you hold any sort of moral superiority on this - ok?

But thats not really the issue here. Its your caveman attitudes towards women thats the issue. Such that if and when an anti-Islam mullah equivalent came in and did exactly what the mullah's in Iran do - ie tell women what they can and can't wear, and enact laws to effect that - you would, at the very least, not raise even a peep of opposition to such "restrictions". And most likely you would be enthusiastically cheering it on.

Nonsense. The hijab, Islam and it's values are not about brown skin. Don't try that stupid, dishonest angle.
A white bint, a white jihadi is as bad a a brown or black one.

That I hold Western values and culture in higher regard than Islam or Ju-ju is not a condemnation or a gotcha. Of course I do.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #121 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:41am

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

That I hold Western values and culture in higher regard...

But thats a lie Frank - a cunning ruse you have come up with to further your racist agenda.

Anyone who has any doubts as to Frank's disdain for western values - needs only read the quote in my signature (written by Frank by the way).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #122 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:45am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:41am:

Frank wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

That I hold Western values and culture in higher regard...

But thats a lie Frank - a cunning ruse you have come up with to further your racist agenda.

Anyone who has any doubts as to Frank's disdain for western values - needs only read the quote in my signature (written by Frank by the way).

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/nazi-hate-symbols-now-banned-victoria

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #123 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 11:03am Quote: ...in recognition of its role in inciting antisemitism and hate. and fair enough IMO. The hijab doesn't incite anything - except frothing at the mouth by Islamophobes like Frank. But banning something because of how much it triggers the bigots, is not really a good justification.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #124 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 11:28am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 11:03am:

Quote:

...in recognition of its role in inciting antisemitism and hate.

and fair enough IMO.

The hijab doesn't incite anything - except frothing at the mouth by Islamophobes like Frank. But banning something because of how much it triggers the bigots, is not really a good justification.

Islam is as anti Jewish as Nazism, it's just not as organised.
Not is Islam is a friend or ally of Western civilisation but its foe. IS was the most recent, vivid demonstration of that.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 111572 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #125 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 2:30pm Gandalf, Why is showing some hair on your head immoral? Is it immoral for men too?
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19466 Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #126 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 7:54pm .
Back to top	iran_un.jpg (56 KB \| 9 ) Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it. IP Logged

Baronvonrort

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #127 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 8:00pm

The only 2 LGBTQ activists in Iran are on death row. This is the Islam the morally bankrupt left support.

Quote:

Just look at the faces of these Iranian women's rights activists when @andrewdoyle_com
asks them about Western feminists that think the face veil is "empowering". It tells you everything you need to know. Their response is well worth listening to.

https://twitter.com/GSpellchecker/status/1579180529966276608?cxt=HHwWgIDTzeeUsOo...

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19466 Gender:	Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression. Reply #128 - Oct 10^th, 2022 at 10:19pm The criminal Iranian mullahs
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AusGeoff

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #129 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 12:53am

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 8:00pm:

The only 2 LGBTQ activists in Iran are on death row. This is the Islam the morally bankrupt left support.

Just look at the faces of these Iranian women's rights activists when @andrewdoyle_com
asks them about Western feminists that think the face veil is "empowering". It tells you everything you need to know. Their response is well worth listening to.

https://twitter.com/GSpellchecker/status/1579180529966276608?cxt=HHwWgIDTzeeUsOo...

Thanks for that link. A very telling interview.

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freediver

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #130 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 8:07am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 7^th, 2022 at 10:53am:

freediver wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 8:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 6^th, 2022 at 10:30am:

freediver wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 6:18pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Sep 30^th, 2022 at 10:56am:

Its true Frank - you refer to hijabis as any one of:

- a miserable creature with no agency
- too ignorant/brainwashed to know any "better"
- deviantly flaunting symbols of oppression
- someone who is not worthy to be part of this society
- someone who is fare game for ridicule

the terms "hijab" and "hijabis" are pejoratives for you. You make it crystal clear that to wear the hijab is a form of deviancy and/or sign of ignorance or someone who has no agency. These women are nothing but caricatures to you.

So no, I am not emoting when I say you degrade and humiliate any woman who wears the hijab.

How much agency do hijabis generally have?

generally where? In Iran - obviously not much, in Australia, a lot more.

Arguing the degree of agency women have in wearing the hijab in a free country like Australia is a fools errand, and adds nothing to the debate.

Why not? If Australian women are being forced to wear the hijab, why would you not want to know about it and defend their rights?

Such coercion wouldn't occur in a vacuum. If there are grown women who are physically being forced to wear the hijab, then I'd expect there to be far worse things going on that should be dealt with first. We call it domestic abuse, and yes I absolutely stand up for the right of women to not be subjected to that. Mostly though, 'coercion' is probably on the same scale as me being 'coerced' by my community to wear pants. Strictly speaking I don't have agency either in that respect, but it becomes so ingrained that the line between coercion and happily doing it voluntarily becomes very blury. And of couse you have to consider the norms and expectations individual families and particular communities have on their members. All of us have all sorts of "coercions" imposed on us by our families and communities - but mostly we don't feign outrage about them and scream about freedom and rights.

Generally though, in our free society, a woman who is not in a domestic abuse situation (that absolutely should be dealt with), a woman should be considered as having as much agency in what she wears as any of us do.

But what this is really about is the unfair standards and expectations Frank and ilk are imposing on women. They somehow know whats best for them - if they wear the hijab, then by default, there is something wrong with them. They "degrade themselves", as Frank assures us. The fact that they always seem to hone in on outward, visible symbols like the hijab to pass judgement, and not even consider the personality, attitudes or beliefs of the actual person wearing it - says it all.

And how do you expect to liberate women in the privacy of their own home while insisting they remain oppressed in public spaces?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby.

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #131 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 9:11am

Bobby. wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Gandalf,

Why is showing some hair on your head immoral?

Is it immoral for men too?

Gandalf won't answer me so I resorted to Google.
I don't know where it says that it's moral to murder a woman who
has a bit of her hair showing?

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/6244/why-do-women-cover-their-hair

Praise be to Allah.

Muslim women cover their hair because Allah has commanded them to do so, and it is not permissible for them to go against what He says and disobey His command. Allah has only commanded them to do this because there is great wisdom in it.

Part of that wisdom is that it protects a woman’s honour from the “human wolves” who are looking for easy prey to attack and devour, and a morsel cannot be eaten unless it is prepared and ready – which is what we see in those woman who make a display of themselves, who by their appearance are calling those wolves to come and take whatever they want!

Confirmation of this is to be found in the words of Allah (interpretation of the meaning):

“… That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed…” [al-Ahzab 33:59].

If a woman covers herself , then immoral and corrupt men will know that this is not part of their prey, thus Allah will protect them and take care of them.

Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have issued a stern warning to women who make a display of themselves. An example of this is:

Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: a people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed but naked, walking with an enticing gait and with their heads looking like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise and will not even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2128).

A woman [or a man] should not try to comprehend Islamic rulings with her reason – which is unable to encompass the wisdom of Shari’ah. She should know that whatever Allah has enjoined upon her contains nothing but goodness and happiness for her, her family and society as a whole.

It is known that a woman’s uncovering her hair makes her more attractive to men, which could lead to them forming hopes about her and committing immoral actions.

Islam wants society to be clean, with no provocation of desires, outrage or uncovering of women’s charms – which include their hair – which can lead to others being tempted by her and which opens the door to evil and its people.

We need to point out again that Islam means submitting to Allah. The believer follows the command of Allah even if he does not know the wisdom behind it or he does not find anything to convince his reason for it, because his obedience of his Lord and his submission to His command take priority over all other things, and worship is based on obedience and submission.

We ask Allah to show us the truth and help us to follow it, and to show us falsehood and help us to avoid it.

And Allah knows best.

Why Do Women Cover Their Hair?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #132 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 9:21am

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 8:07am:

And how do you expect to liberate women in the privacy of their own home while insisting they remain oppressed in public spaces?

You've lost me FD (now there's a surprise).

Where am I trying to a) liberate women in their own home and b) insist they remain oppressed in public spaces? Are we talking about Iran or Australia?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #133 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 9:27am

Bobby. wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 9:11am:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 10^th, 2022 at 2:30pm:

Gandalf,

Why is showing some hair on your head immoral?

Is it immoral for men too?

Gandalf won't answer me so I resorted to Google.
I don't know where it says that it's moral to murder a woman who
has a bit of her hair showing?

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/6244/why-do-women-cover-their-hair

Praise be to Allah.

Muslim women cover their hair because Allah has commanded them to do so, and it is not permissible for them to go against what He says and disobey His command. Allah has only commanded them to do this because there is great wisdom in it.

Part of that wisdom is that it protects a woman’s honour from the “human wolves” who are looking for easy prey to attack and devour, and a morsel cannot be eaten unless it is prepared and ready – which is what we see in those woman who make a display of themselves, who by their appearance are calling those wolves to come and take whatever they want!

Confirmation of this is to be found in the words of Allah (interpretation of the meaning):

“… That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed…” [al-Ahzab 33:59].

If a woman covers herself , then immoral and corrupt men will know that this is not part of their prey, thus Allah will protect them and take care of them.

Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have issued a stern warning to women who make a display of themselves. An example of this is:

Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: a people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed but naked, walking with an enticing gait and with their heads looking like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise and will not even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance can be detected from such and such a distance.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2128).

A woman [or a man] should not try to comprehend Islamic rulings with her reason – which is unable to encompass the wisdom of Shari’ah. She should know that whatever Allah has enjoined upon her contains nothing but goodness and happiness for her, her family and society as a whole.

It is known that a woman’s uncovering her hair makes her more attractive to men, which could lead to them forming hopes about her and committing immoral actions.

Islam wants society to be clean, with no provocation of desires, outrage or uncovering of women’s charms – which include their hair – which can lead to others being tempted by her and which opens the door to evil and its people.

We need to point out again that Islam means submitting to Allah. The believer follows the command of Allah even if he does not know the wisdom behind it or he does not find anything to convince his reason for it, because his obedience of his Lord and his submission to His command take priority over all other things, and worship is based on obedience and submission.

We ask Allah to show us the truth and help us to follow it, and to show us falsehood and help us to avoid it.

And Allah knows best.

Why Do Women Cover Their Hair?

Typical salafist nonsense. Best stay away from islamqa

Its not immoral, by the way.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: Hijab, a symbol of oppression.
Reply #134 - Oct 11^th, 2022 at 9:28am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 9:21am:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2022 at 8:07am:

And how do you expect to liberate women in the privacy of their own home while insisting they remain oppressed in public spaces?

You've lost me FD (now there's a surprise).

Where am I trying to a) liberate women in their own home and b) insist they remain oppressed in public spaces? Are we talking about Iran or Australia?

As far as the hijab is concerned, what's the difference?

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