Australian Politics Forum - The Australian Wars

mothra

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #450 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:11am

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 7:54pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:55pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:24am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:10am:

Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.

So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.

You cannot be disposed of anything you don't own.

Who determines ownership?

Well not Aboriginals as they say they don't own the land - they belong to the land.

Like fauna?

Complete fallacy ... want to prove it otherwise?

Aboriginals were never listed as fauna.

That's something often attributed to Aboriginal people ... saying they belong to the land not the land belonging to them.

I'm asking you if you would say they were like fauna.

You admit they possessws the land but say they didn't own it.

How is that not just semantics?

I never said they possessed the land at all

their belief system was that they belonged to it like everything else .... the land possessed them Roll Eyes

Damn that's such a nasty and mean-spirited "explanation" as to why Aboriginal people deserve nothing at all.

Horrible, horrible thinking.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15251 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #451 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:12am Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am: the land possessed them How does land possess people?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #452 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:14am

mothra wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:10am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 6:52am:

A modern democracy must not only be founded on the principle of the rule of law, but the rule of just law.

The foundational principle of terra nullius in Australia was recognised as unjust and a legal fiction 30 years ago when it was ended by the High Court.

The admission of this injustice has led to the logical conclusion (in our democracy committed to the rule of just law) that the consequences of terra nullius - via its application to aboriginal legal status, land acquisition and treatment - require restitution, reparations and redress.

The 1967 Referendum and the Native Title Act have advanced those requirements regarding aboriginal legal status and unjust land acquisition.

Australians are now tasked with redressing the persisting sociocultural consequences of unjust dispossession.

This task is significantly more nebulous than the concrete recognition of aboriginals and their right to own their lands and is, no doubt, the reason it's the last train to leave terra nullius.

The question put to us is not whether it should be done, but how should it be done such that it satisfies standards of redress (establishing a concrete solution into the future) for ongoing sociocultural damage done.

An excellent post. I wholeheartedly concur.

It'll fall on deaf ears though. I and many before me and since have said the same. Over and over and over again.

It doesn't matter about deaf ears - the train must leave terra nullius anyway.

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issuevoter

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #453 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:17am

The Australian Wars? Don't tell me you didn't know any of this. Where have you been living? Under a rock?

One of the great deficiencies in popular mentality is that history is boring. This is why the average person gets their perspective from TV or movies which are strained through the bias of the editors and producers. The only accounts that have any value are written by the people who were there, and it is all available in printed literature, if you have the attention span.

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #454 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:24am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 6:52am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:03am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

Cooo-rrect! And???

A modern democracy must not only be founded on the principle of the rule of law, but the rule of just law.

The foundational principle of terra nullius in Australia was recognised as unjust and a legal fiction 30 years ago when it was ended by the High Court.

The admission of this injustice has led to the logical conclusion (in our democracy committed to the rule of just law) that the consequences of terra nullius - via its application to aboriginal legal status, land acquisition and treatment - require restitution, reparations and redress.

The 1967 Referendum and the Native Title Act have advanced those requirements regarding aboriginal legal status and unjust land acquisition.

Australians are now tasked with redressing the persisting sociocultural consequences of unjust dispossession.

This task is significantly more nebulous than the concrete recognition of aboriginals and their right to own their lands and is, no doubt, the reason it's the last train to leave terra nullius.

The question put to us is not whether it should be done, but how should it be done such that it satisfies standards of redress (establishing a concrete solution into the future) for ongoing sociocultural damage done.

For how long?

And when will enough ever be enough?

It's fine to wax lyrical about redressing the dispossession of lands in the past but nothing seems to resolve many of the other issues confronting Aboriginal Australians..... particularly those in remote areas.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Boris Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4394 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #455 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:27am They rape and murder children - and not long ago they also ate children. Stone Age Savages
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #456 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:27am

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:24am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 6:52am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:03am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

Cooo-rrect! And???

A modern democracy must not only be founded on the principle of the rule of law, but the rule of just law.

The foundational principle of terra nullius in Australia was recognised as unjust and a legal fiction 30 years ago when it was ended by the High Court.

The admission of this injustice has led to the logical conclusion (in our democracy committed to the rule of just law) that the consequences of terra nullius - via its application to aboriginal legal status, land acquisition and treatment - require restitution, reparations and redress.

The 1967 Referendum and the Native Title Act have advanced those requirements regarding aboriginal legal status and unjust land acquisition.

Australians are now tasked with redressing the persisting sociocultural consequences of unjust dispossession.

This task is significantly more nebulous than the concrete recognition of aboriginals and their right to own their lands and is, no doubt, the reason it's the last train to leave terra nullius.

The question put to us is not whether it should be done, but how should it be done such that it satisfies standards of redress (establishing a concrete solution into the future) for ongoing sociocultural damage done.

For how long?

And when will enough ever be enough?

It's fine to wax lyrical about redressing the dispossession of lands in the past but nothing seems to resolve many of the other issues confronting Aboriginal Australians..... particularly those in remote areas.

Good questions.

Redress for sociocultural damage done is not bounded by easily identifiable quantitative metrics.

The journey continues...

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #457 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:28am

mothra wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:11am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 7:54pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:55pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:24am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:10am:

Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.

So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.

You cannot be disposed of anything you don't own.

Who determines ownership?

Well not Aboriginals as they say they don't own the land - they belong to the land.

Like fauna?

Complete fallacy ... want to prove it otherwise?

Aboriginals were never listed as fauna.

That's something often attributed to Aboriginal people ... saying they belong to the land not the land belonging to them.

I'm asking you if you would say they were like fauna.

You admit they possessws the land but say they didn't own it.

How is that not just semantics?

I never said they possessed the land at all

their belief system was that they belonged to it like everything else .... the land possessed them Roll Eyes

Damn that's such a nasty and mean-spirited "explanation" as to why Aboriginal people deserve nothing at all.

Horrible, horrible thinking.

Deserve nothing at all? Stop making up shyte.

That's exactly what their belief system was that everything belonged to the land - plants, animals, fish and them ...... and that they had to look after country.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 31472 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #458 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:30am MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:12am: Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am: the land possessed them How does land possess people? Are you being deliberately obtuse? You will find that many Aboriginal/native peoples globally hold similar belief.
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mothra

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #459 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:32am

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:24am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 6:52am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:03am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

Cooo-rrect! And???

A modern democracy must not only be founded on the principle of the rule of law, but the rule of just law.

The foundational principle of terra nullius in Australia was recognised as unjust and a legal fiction 30 years ago when it was ended by the High Court.

The admission of this injustice has led to the logical conclusion (in our democracy committed to the rule of just law) that the consequences of terra nullius - via its application to aboriginal legal status, land acquisition and treatment - require restitution, reparations and redress.

The 1967 Referendum and the Native Title Act have advanced those requirements regarding aboriginal legal status and unjust land acquisition.

Australians are now tasked with redressing the persisting sociocultural consequences of unjust dispossession.

This task is significantly more nebulous than the concrete recognition of aboriginals and their right to own their lands and is, no doubt, the reason it's the last train to leave terra nullius.

The question put to us is not whether it should be done, but how should it be done such that it satisfies standards of redress (establishing a concrete solution into the future) for ongoing sociocultural damage done.

For how long?

And when will enough ever be enough?

It's fine to wax lyrical about redressing the dispossession of lands in the past but nothing seems to resolve many of the other issues confronting Aboriginal Australians..... particularly those in remote areas.

There has been no treaty. There has been no ceding of soverignty. People are still waiting for wages from decades ago.

There is much we need to redress before we can possibly say we have done enough to satisfy any obligations we have.

And furthermore, most of what is spent in terms of dollars on Indigenous people never reaches them If you know anything about this issue, you know this.

There is much we must address before we can possibly say we have done enough.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 36073 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #460 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:33am Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:30am: MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:12am: Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am: the land possessed them How does land possess people? Are you being deliberately obtuse? No, you are. In the defence of the reprehensible.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #461 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:38am

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:30am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:12am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am:

the land possessed them

How does land possess people?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You will find that many Aboriginal/native peoples globally hold similar belief.

How do you define land possession of people?

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Boris Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4394 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #462 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:39am They rape and murder children - and not long ago they also ate children. Stone Age Savages
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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #463 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:47am

mothra wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:33am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:30am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:12am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am:

the land possessed them

How does land possess people?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

No, you are.

In the defence of the reprehensible.

Bullshyte .... you explain their belief system & their association/place in country ... i.e. the world.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #464 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:50am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:38am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:30am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:12am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am:

the land possessed them

How does land possess people?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You will find that many Aboriginal/native peoples globally hold similar belief.

How do you define land possession of people?

Yep obtuse ..... they are part of the big picture, wrapped up in all things part of the Universe....

they don't own ... they belong to & in nature.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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