Australian Politics Forum - The Australian Wars

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #435 - Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:27pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:27pm:

So they possessed the land, then.

Isn't possession 9/10 of the law?

PROOF of possession is 9/10 of the law. When a group wanders around a large area, they cannot safely say that is proof they own all of it, and without any formal recognition of ownership, that was supplanted by the English way.

You can't just wander onto a vast swathe of land and lay claim to it these days....

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 36073 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #436 - Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:38pm
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #437 - Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:41pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:27pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:27pm:

So they possessed the land, then.

Isn't possession 9/10 of the law?

PROOF of possession is 9/10 of the law. When a group wanders around a large area, they cannot safely say that is proof they own all of it, and without any formal recognition of ownership, that was supplanted by the English way.

You can't just wander onto a vast swathe of land and lay claim to it these days....

No. Possession is 9/10 of the law. The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership.

However, terra nullius expunged the onus on settlers of that burden.

Again, there are echoes of this from New Zealand, where in 1860, Maori tribes were required to register their lands. Those lands that were not registered by a specific date defaulted to the crown. The decree was written in English and Maori but Maoris were still mostly illiterate and did not register their land before the stipulated deadline.

That's when the fighting started.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #438 - Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15282 Gender:	Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life Reply #439 - Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:00pm Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm: "The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value. No, it doesn't. The onus is on the claimant to prove their ownership.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #440 - Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #441 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:03am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

Cooo-rrect! And???

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #442 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:05am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:00pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

No, it doesn't. The onus is on the claimant to prove their ownership.

So you say the onus is on the claimant to prove ownership, yet in your eyes proof of possession is not 9/10 of the law?

Bizarre to say the least....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #443 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 6:52am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:03am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

Cooo-rrect! And???

A modern democracy must not only be founded on the principle of the rule of law, but the rule of just law.

The foundational principle of terra nullius in Australia was recognised as unjust and a legal fiction 30 years ago when it was ended by the High Court.

The admission of this injustice has led to the logical conclusion (in our democracy committed to the rule of just law) that the consequences of terra nullius - via its application to aboriginal legal status, land acquisition and treatment - require restitution, reparations and redress.

The 1967 Referendum and the Native Title Act have advanced those requirements regarding aboriginal legal status and unjust land acquisition.

Australians are now tasked with redressing the persisting sociocultural consequences of unjust dispossession.

This task is significantly more nebulous than the concrete recognition of aboriginals and their right to own their lands and is, no doubt, the reason it's the last train to leave terra nullius.

The question put to us is not whether it should be done, but how should it be done such that it satisfies standards of redress (establishing a concrete solution into the future) for ongoing sociocultural damage done.

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #444 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:04am

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 7:31pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:52pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:11pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:06pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Sep 26^th, 2022 at 4:39pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 26^th, 2022 at 4:37pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 25^th, 2022 at 7:56pm:

Reprise - takes another bow:-

Well - I guess they didn't learn their lesson at Appin all those years ago after running around and murdering more than sixteen Whites, including women and children, in their ethnic cleansing/genocide against Whites ... and when Whartey cunningly snuck up on them and caught them napping while in hiding and took down fourteen armed combatants in a melee in the dark with a few not so innocent bystanders included.

When you run with the wild dogs killing sheep - you die with the wild dogs....

Now they run around murdering society by proxy while feeding off it .... and nobody mounts an operation against them... instead all the spiritually, morally and cerebrally blind, mentally lame and halt, and drug-addled on New City Hall Righteousness (NCHR) actually change history to make it into something it never was.

They stand at the gates (gatekeepers), lumping people (as the generationophobes do) into neat little boxes in their own minds, like Dr Mengele - and determine on a purely arbitrary basis which facts and reports and histories will be sent to work for the cause and which will go to the Social Scientist gas chambers...

Blacks raping and murdering women and children - GOOD! Whites killing combatants and taking children into protection - BAD!

Seriously - this country has become very, very sick.

Much of the world is in trouble, as Guterres said (to which your reply was: zzzzzzzzzzzz, - an indication of your grasp of reality.

Now, the reason why people want to rewrite black history in Oz is to provide an explaination of why the egregious and disgraceful gap exists.

But like I said, the survival and transition of an illiterate hunter-gatherer society which possessed no technology at all (apart from animal skins for clothing in cold regions?) is an extremely complex task.

You were on course with your previous post: assisted training to enter the modern world's economy.

To be sure, if you want to measure the cost of this training in dollars, and force the government to tax or borrow the money, the project loses its appeal.....

But Oz has all the resources it needs to train 100K or more blacks to enter the modern economy.

However, since everyone's fooled by the current central bank arrangements, that task won't be achieved.

First Australians had a lot more technology than that but yes, they were ripped from their way of life into one they did not know

Absolute bullshyte.

I am glad you are recognising your contribution to this debate, Gnads finally. All you have contributed is bullshit, Racism pure and simple. What a WOFTAM. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

And you just a SJW hypocrite..... who sprouts bullshyte ad infinitum.

Care to demonstrate where I have supposedly done that, Gnads? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

Just go back to anyone of your posts ... there's plenty to pick from. Tsk tsk tsk.

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:13am by Gnads »

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #445 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:05am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 7:51pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:50pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 4:51pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 4:44pm:

So the Terra was nullius for legal, treaty making purposes. Which is what it ALWAYS meant.

It wasn't left as a legal nicety, it was the basis for all land acquisition throughout Australia without the need for negotiations or agreements with Aboriginal peoples.

It became the founding principle for legal dispossession.

Which is what happened all over the globe ... not just by the British

Why do peoples from Mexico south throughout the whole Sth American continent speak Spanish?

Excepting Brazil that speaks another European language - Portuguese.

So, you're saying: it's not that the British didn't dispossess aboriginals, it's that others perpetrated the same dispossession on peoples all over the globe.

Well unless you don't know anything about history or need it tattooed on your forehead...... Roll Eyes

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #446 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:08am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 7:54pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:55pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:24am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:10am:

Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.

So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.

You cannot be disposed of anything you don't own.

Who determines ownership?

Well not Aboriginals as they say they don't own the land - they belong to the land.

Like fauna?

Complete fallacy ... want to prove it otherwise?

Aboriginals were never listed as fauna.

That's something often attributed to Aboriginal people ... saying they belong to the land not the land belonging to them.

I'm asking you if you would say they were like fauna.

You admit they possessws the land but say they didn't own it.

How is that not just semantics?

I never said they possessed the land at all

their belief system was that they belonged to it like everything else .... the land possessed them Roll Eyes

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mothra

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #447 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:10am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 6:52am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 1:03am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 11:03pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 10:55pm:

"The onus is on the claimant to prove ownership." Still requires PROOF of ownership. Semantics... of no value.

Same thing.... 'claimant' can be someone who says "I own that but I've got no deeds" or another who ways "I own it and I've got deeds" ...

Who ya gonna believe?

You can argue it any way you want - the Aborigines could say they own it but not enforce it... so who is this 'claimant' you speak of?

The guy with the Pommy deeds or the Aboriginal claiming ancestral?

Terra nullius meant that settlers did not have to prove ownership over any aboriginal possession.

The settlers purchased land and leases from the crown. Aboriginals were not consulted.

Cooo-rrect! And???

A modern democracy must not only be founded on the principle of the rule of law, but the rule of just law.

The foundational principle of terra nullius in Australia was recognised as unjust and a legal fiction 30 years ago when it was ended by the High Court.

The admission of this injustice has led to the logical conclusion (in our democracy committed to the rule of just law) that the consequences of terra nullius - via its application to aboriginal legal status, land acquisition and treatment - require restitution, reparations and redress.

The 1967 Referendum and the Native Title Act have advanced those requirements regarding aboriginal legal status and unjust land acquisition.

Australians are now tasked with redressing the persisting sociocultural consequences of unjust dispossession.

This task is significantly more nebulous than the concrete recognition of aboriginals and their right to own their lands and is, no doubt, the reason it's the last train to leave terra nullius.

The question put to us is not whether it should be done, but how should it be done such that it satisfies standards of redress (establishing a concrete solution into the future) for ongoing sociocultural damage done.

An excellent post. I wholeheartedly concur.

It'll fall on deaf ears though. I and many before me and since have said the same. Over and over and over again.

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Gnads

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #448 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:10am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 9:31pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 8:45pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:26pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:22pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:12pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:29pm:

Gnads wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 5:21pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:24am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 24^th, 2022 at 11:10am:

Anyone who looks dispassionately and without rose coloured one way glasses at these incidents can see clearly that they were in no way 'genocidal' moves, but were, rather, retaliatory moves against murderers, and as I said, it is only when such things come up and people of good will actually look at the incidents etc, that they see the real truth.

So, land dispossession can be discounted as a motivator for aboriginal retaliation.

You cannot be disposed of anything you don't own.

Who determines ownership?

Well not Aboriginals as they say they don't own the land - they belong to the land.

Like fauna?

In LEGAL terms, and spiritually, yes. You can't make a treaty with people who do not have the concepts of a treaty and what it might cover and what it might not.

So they could be legally cleared from the land like the thylacine?

Yes. And they were. There was no recognised LEGAL reason for them to be left anywhere they claimed to belong. Harsh reality.
They simply had no recognisable claim under recognisable law.

And human cultural memory of injustice is forever.

In totalitarian states, it ends in concentration camps and a hail of bullets.

Has it ended that way?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The Australian Wars - Culture is Life
Reply #449 - Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:10am

Gnads wrote on Oct 9^th, 2022 at 7:05am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 7:51pm:

Gnads wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 5:50pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 4:51pm:

Frank wrote on Oct 8^th, 2022 at 4:44pm:

So the Terra was nullius for legal, treaty making purposes. Which is what it ALWAYS meant.

It wasn't left as a legal nicety, it was the basis for all land acquisition throughout Australia without the need for negotiations or agreements with Aboriginal peoples.

It became the founding principle for legal dispossession.

Which is what happened all over the globe ... not just by the British

Why do peoples from Mexico south throughout the whole Sth American continent speak Spanish?

Excepting Brazil that speaks another European language - Portuguese.

So, you're saying: it's not that the British didn't dispossess aboriginals, it's that others perpetrated the same dispossession on peoples all over the globe.

Well unless you don't know anything about history or need it tattooed on your forehead...... Roll Eyes

Whataboutism is not absolution. It's an admission of guilt.

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