Australian Politics Forum - The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."

Aussie

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The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:39pm

This one has always pissed me orf, especially back in the day when one was seeking bail for a person.

It is a furphy long over-ridden by Statute and we ought to recognise that.

It manifests itself in other ways not involving Statutes, like when there is public demand that someone ought to resign or stand aside simply because they have been charged with a crime. Aren't they innocent, and if so, why should they stand aside or resign?

It's feelgood wallpaper over bullshit.

Way past time we dumped that slogan.

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Jake Winker Frogen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1503 Perth WA Gender:	Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty." Reply #1 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:49pm I really do not see where you are going with this one my old friend.
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17122 Gender:	Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty." Reply #2 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role?
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39840 Gender:	Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty." Reply #3 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:41pm MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm: So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role? No...he pulled the pin himself.
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39840 Gender:	Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty." Reply #4 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:42pm Jake Winker Frogen wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:49pm: I really do not see where you are going with this one my old friend. Oh...it's just me waving my angry broom at a windmill, Sancho.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #5 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:45pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role?

No...he pulled the pin himself.

Yes, but (ostensibly) due to his acceding to your premise that he's not presumed innocent despite his not being found guilty, nor even faced a judge.

And then, was he told, 'jump or be pushed'?

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Aussie

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #6 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:48pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role?

No...he pulled the pin himself.

Yes, but (ostensibly) due to his acceding to your premise that he's not presumed innocent despite his not being found guilty, nor even faced a judge.

And then, was he told, 'jump or be pushed'?

My premise is opposed to my personal view. It schits me that people are hounded out of office just because they are charged, or an allegation is made.

But that is the fact, and that means we might as well admit that the virtue signalling slogan of 'innocent until proven guilty' is no more than that...a slogan.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #7 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:58pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:48pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role?

No...he pulled the pin himself.

Yes, but (ostensibly) due to his acceding to your premise that he's not presumed innocent despite his not being found guilty, nor even faced a judge.

And then, was he told, 'jump or be pushed'?

My premise is opposed to my personal view. It schits me that people are hounded out of office just because they are charged, or an allegation is made.

But that is the fact, and that means we might as well admit that the virtue signalling slogan of 'innocent until proven guilty' is no more than that...a slogan.

Shouldn't some professionals or public position-holders be held to a higher standard?

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #8 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 8:33pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:39pm:

This one has always pissed me orf, especially back in the day when one was seeking bail for a person.

It is a furphy long over-ridden by Statute and we ought to recognise that.

It manifests itself in other ways not involving Statutes, like when there is public demand that someone ought to resign or stand aside simply because they have been charged with a crime. Aren't they innocent, and if so, why should they stand aside or resign?

It's feelgood wallpaper over bullshit.

Way past time we dumped that slogan.

How the courts work in general is not reflected by accusations against someone in a prominent public position

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John Smith

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #9 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 8:33pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:48pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role?

No...he pulled the pin himself.

Yes, but (ostensibly) due to his acceding to your premise that he's not presumed innocent despite his not being found guilty, nor even faced a judge.

And then, was he told, 'jump or be pushed'?

My premise is opposed to my personal view. It schits me that people are hounded out of office just because they are charged, or an allegation is made.

But that is the fact, and that means we might as well admit that the virtue signalling slogan of 'innocent until proven guilty' is no more than that...a slogan.

Shouldn't some professionals or public position-holders be held to a higher standard?

Exactly.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Aussie

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #10 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 8:56pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:48pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:45pm:

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:41pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

So John Barilaro should still take up the role of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner for the Americas despite the growing suspicion that he abused his position to secure the role?

No...he pulled the pin himself.

Yes, but (ostensibly) due to his acceding to your premise that he's not presumed innocent despite his not being found guilty, nor even faced a judge.

And then, was he told, 'jump or be pushed'?

My premise is opposed to my personal view. It schits me that people are hounded out of office just because they are charged, or an allegation is made.

But that is the fact, and that means we might as well admit that the virtue signalling slogan of 'innocent until proven guilty' is no more than that...a slogan.

Shouldn't some professionals or public position-holders be held to a higher standard?

Nominate which professionals and public position-holders you are referring to.

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AusGeoff

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #11 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 9:33pm

A recent example of a typical media-inspired kangaroo court was the
Lisa Wilkinson interview with Brittany Higgins. By unquestioningly
accepting the veracity of Higgins's version of her alleged rape by
Bruce Lehrmann—Wilkinson effectively confirmed Lehrmann's guilt
before the trial had even come to court. And as a lot of people said,
Wilkinson should rightly have been charged with contempt of court.

So... innocent until proven guilty? Not in this case. It's now "guilty
until proven innocent", thanks to Wilkinson's contempt for the judicial
processes.

And of course, at this stage, there's been no confirmation made public
of Lehrmann's side of the story, allowing him to defend himself—just as
Higgins has been allowed to accuse him in public. Why not? Should not
Wilkinson interviewed him as well—equal time for both parties?

Wilkinson is a well-known money-grubbing media whore. Says a lot.

Wilkinson was offered a $1.8 million salary package on Sunrise, but
demanded $2.3 million. And it needs noting that for their first 5-year
partnership on Sunrise, Wilkinson was earning more than $700K, or
twice Stefanovic's salary. But we didn't hear him bitching about that
pay differential in 2007.

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AusGeoff

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #12 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 9:56pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

...Shouldn't some professionals or public position-holders be held to a higher standard?

Yes, exactly the point. Immediately coming to mind are policemen, barristers
and solicitors, members of parliament, school principals, surgeons, court judges, etc.

Because of the power they hold by virtue of their position, they should rightly be
subject to much higher performance standards than a burger flipper.

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Aussie

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #13 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 10:23pm

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 9:56pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

...Shouldn't some professionals or public position-holders be held to a higher standard?

Yes, exactly the point. Immediately coming to mind are policemen, barristers
and solicitors, members of parliament, school principals, surgeons, court judges, etc.

Because of the power they hold by virtue of their position, they should rightly be
subject to much higher performance standards than a burger flipper.

I don't follow....you say 'power' means somehow if any allegation of naughtiness is made against a person you say has 'power,' they must ipso fact forfeit the presumption of innocence, and therefore must step aside, resign....even though they might vehemently deny any guilt?

WTF????

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AusGeoff

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Re: The bullshit of ~ "innocent until proven guilty."
Reply #14 - Jul 13^th, 2022 at 10:34pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 9:56pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 13^th, 2022 at 7:58pm:

...Shouldn't some professionals or public position-holders be held to a higher standard?

...Because of the power they hold by virtue of their position, they should rightly be
subject to much higher performance standards than a burger flipper.

I don't follow....you say 'power' means somehow if any allegation of naughtiness is made against a person you say has 'power,' they must ipso fact forfeit the presumption of innocence, and therefore must step aside, resign....even though they might vehemently deny any guilt?

No, I didn't mean that at all. What I did say was that people in positions
of power should be held to higher standards than the general public. A policeman
taking a bribe is far, far worse than the burger flipper forgetting my extra pickles.

You've put words in my mouth. Sad

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