Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #60 - May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #61 - May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm

lee wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 4:19pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 23^rd, 2022 at 2:23pm:

China is using coal as a bridging technology, yes

A bridge too far? Wink

Well, Chinese GDP per capita is just c.$10,000 - still below middle income status, despite lifting a billion people out of absolute poverty at the fastest rate in history, since 1990. China has every right to continue that projectory.

And Chinese emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

So if you insist on forcing the Chinese to rely on their own resources, you can't complain about them continuing to employ coal as a bridge technology, while they transition to nuclear and renewables (planned to be completed by 2060).

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #62 - May 24^th, 2022 at 10:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

China is the 2nd or even the 1st richest nation in the world.
We're a nation in massive debt.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #63 - May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:23pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 12:10am:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of...

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants

Some 176 gigawatts of coal capacity was under construction in 2021, and more than half of that was being built in China
Environment 26 April 2022

By Adam Vaughan

Globally, the number of coal power stations is actually growing as new constructions more than offset the closure of old plants.

Construction of new coal-fired stations is occurring overwhelmingly in Asia, with China accounting for 52 per cent of the 176 gigawatts of coal capacity under construction in 20 countries last year.

Among a population with av. GDP per capita c.$5000 (probably less, on average)

So, the rich world has to step up. How much are you prepared to instruct your government to assist poor nations in Africa and Asia ?

China is the 2nd or even the 1st richest nation in the world.
We're a nation in massive debt.

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy- can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2022 at 12:08am by thegreatdivide »

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #64 - May 25^th, 2022 at 12:11am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am:

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy- can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

Don't be an apologist for the worst polluting country on Earth.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #65 - May 25^th, 2022 at 12:18pm

Bobby. wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:11am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 12:01am:

You don't understand per capita wealth, cf GDP.

While China - with a $15 trillion economy- can afford to put a rover on Mars, unlike Oz whose GDP is simply not large enough, China cannot afford to go green as fast as Oz, because a green transition requires every citizen to be moderately wealthy if the nation is to be able to fund the transition to produce sufficient green energy for every citizen.

Do the math: a billion people transitioning to green costs 40 times as much to transition as 25 million people to transition, ie the Chinese GDP would have to be 40 times more than Oz's GDP. - c. $60 trillion (40 times $1.5 trillion).

Don't be an apologist for the worst polluting country on Earth.

Stop accusing China of not doing enough, when Australians - who are 5 times as wealthy as Chinese per capita - emit 5 times as much CO2 per capita as Chinese.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #66 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

And Chinese emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

The old per capita schlock. Grin

Total emissions are supposed to be the problem. If it is only per capita we can stand back and let China catch up. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

So if you insist on forcing the Chinese to rely on their own resources, you can't complain about them continuing to employ coal as a bridge technology, while they transition to nuclear and renewables (planned to be completed by 2060).

Who's complaining? Plants love CO2. They grow best when fed up to 1500ppm. At 180ppm they tend to die.

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2022 at 1:18pm by lee »

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #67 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 24^th, 2022 at 10:36pm:

And Chinese emission per capita are a fifth of the US.

The old per capita schlock. Grin

Total emissions are supposed to be the problem. If it is only per capita we can stand back and let China catch up. Roll Eyes

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure. That measures the overall direction of society instead of skewing for demographics.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20194 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #68 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm: The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure. Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters. So therefore it can't be "the only way".
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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #69 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:20pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:10pm:

The only way to work out who is worst, is a per capita measure.

Nope. Total CO2 emissions are the best because we can see which countries are the biggest emitters.

So therefore it can't be "the only way". Roll Eyes

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #70 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm:

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

Wow. that was deep - NOT. Larger power plants are more efficient than smaller ones.

The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #71 - May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm:

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:21pm:

Total emissions clearly matter, but if China has 30 times the people as Australia and creates twice the pollution, they are clearly doing more about pollution than we are

Wow. that was deep - NOT. Larger power plants are more efficient than smaller ones.

The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding.

Scrubbers. LOL!!!

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20194 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #72 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:00pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm: Scrubbers. LOL!!! Oh dear. Thinking of your wife again?
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FutureTheLeftWant Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6625 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #73 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:02pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 2:00pm: FutureTheLeftWant wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:41pm: Scrubbers. LOL!!! Oh dear. Thinking of your wife again? All 'clean coal' technology is bullshit
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15236 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #74 - May 25^th, 2022 at 2:12pm lee wrote on May 25^th, 2022 at 1:39pm: The new ones even have scrubbers these days. They are something that can be retrofitted but can't get the necessary funding. Why is that?
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