Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21400 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #510 - May 16^th, 2023 at 2:51pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 1:32pm: "China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035" And an even larger increase in CO2 emissions. Talk about being ideologically blind.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #511 - May 16^th, 2023 at 4:29pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 2:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 1:32pm:

"China is already the world's largest producer of renewable energy, and plans to reach maximum carbon emissions by 2035"

And an even larger increase in CO2 emissions. Talk about being ideologically blind. Grin

er...lifting the living standards of the population of a developing country (as opposed to a developed country like Oz) means increasing energy consumption per capita.

China intends to peak its CO2 emissions by 2035, after which time it will be technologically advanced enough to continue to lift per capita energy consumption while decreasing ff consumption.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21400 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #512 - May 16^th, 2023 at 5:21pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 4:29pm: China intends to peak its CO2 emissions by 2035, after which time it will be technologically advanced enough to continue to lift per capita energy consumption while decreasing ff consumption. Yes. So CO2 can't be a problem.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15591 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #513 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:06pm lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 5:21pm: GD: "...while decreasing ff consumption". Yes. So CO2 can't be a problem. "while decreasing ff consumption".. because CO2 emission is a problem, so the CCP thinks ...along with the UN..
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21400 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #514 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:09pm thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:06pm: "while decreasing ff consumption".. because CO2 emission is a problem, so the CCP thinks ...along with the UN.. And yet, if renewables are so good, they could do it with renewables straight away. The lead times would be less, and they could build straight away.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #515 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:06pm:

"while decreasing ff consumption".. because CO2 emission is a problem, so the CCP thinks ...along with the UN..

And yet, if renewables are so good, they could do it with renewables straight away. The lead times would be less, and they could build straight away. Roll Eyes

No, because we need an entire new transmission grid plus storage, to connect the new renewables sources (in deserts, offshore etc) to consumers... costing $62 trillion, according to one estimate....

Whereas new coal mines can be built alongside the existing grid.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #516 - May 16^th, 2023 at 6:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm:

No, because we need an entire new transmission grid plus storage, to connect the new renewables sources (in deserts, offshore etc) to consumers... costing $62 trillion, according to one estimate....

That's not China. Remember, China has a vast number of slave labourers. Roll Eyes

That 62 trillion is globally. Australia with 1% needs 620 BILLION.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm:

Whereas new coal mines can be built alongside the existing grid.

So what's the problem with building solar panels along the existing grid? Or Wind Turbines? Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #517 - May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:58pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 6:44pm:

No, because we need an entire new transmission grid plus storage, to connect the new renewables sources (in deserts, offshore etc) to consumers... costing $62 trillion, according to one estimate....

That's not China. Remember, China has a vast number of slave labourers. Roll Eyes

Still the new transmission grid and storage has to be built - a 2-decade project in ANY country, regardles of "slave labour". (and it's a pity the boring machine got bogged in the Oz snowy mountains....)

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That 62 trillion is globally. Australia with 1% needs 620 BILLION.

The cost of the subs?

And 2 decades to complete the transition, if they pull their fingers out.

Quote:

So what's the problem with building solar panels along the existing grid? Or Wind Turbines? Roll Eyes

Apart from rooftop solar, you need vast desert and off- shore farms, like the Sun Cable scheme.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #518 - May 16^th, 2023 at 8:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

Still the new transmission grid and storage has to be built - a 2-decade project in ANY country, regardles of "slave labour". (and it's a pity the boring machine got bogged in the Oz snowy mountains....)

Nope. Millions of cheap labourers make it really easy. The boring machine got stuck because of subsidence. The engineering must have been good. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

And 2 decades to complete the transition, if they pull their fingers out.

So it is not urgent then to curb CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

Apart from rooftop solar, you need vast desert and off- shore farms, like the Sun Cable scheme.

So tell us how many of the endangered Southern Right Whales will be allowed to be killed.

The Sun Cable System is problematic, despite Twiggy and Cannon-Brooks. Twiggy's company is bleeding personnel despite high wages. Probably because they can see the problems others can't. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #519 - May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm

lee wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 8:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 16^th, 2023 at 7:26pm:

Still the new transmission grid and storage has to be built - a 2-decade project in ANY country, regardles of "slave labour". (and it's a pity the boring machine got bogged in the Oz snowy mountains....)

Nope. Millions of cheap labourers make it really easy.

The poor blind conservative mind again:

China has 50 times the demand for energy than Oz, so will have to build 50 times as much infrastructure.

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The boring machine got stuck because of subsidence. The engineering must have been good. Roll Eyes

The point is ONE scheme of this type will require a certain workforce; China needs 50 times as many such schemes.

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So it is not urgent then to curb CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

Classic conservative back to front thinking...
Curbing CO2 emissions ASAP is the whole point of the transition.

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So tell us how many of the endangered Southern Right Whales will be allowed to be killed.

Guard devices can be fitted.

Quote:

The Sun Cable System is problematic, despite Twiggy and Cannon-Brooks. Twiggy's company is bleeding personnel despite high wages. Probably because they can see the problems others can't. Roll Eyes

The Oz govt. should fund and build the world's largest solar farm - at no cost to you (other than a resource 'opportunity' cost), to supply the Oz grid with free electricity.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #520 - May 17^th, 2023 at 12:15pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

China has 50 times the demand for energy than Oz, so will have to build 50 times as much infrastructure.

But solar panels are quick to erect, they are cheaper...so why not build in solar panels instead of longer term solutions like Coal plant. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

The point is ONE scheme of this type will require a certain workforce; China needs 50 times as many such schemes.

They need 50 boring machines? Why? China has many more people than Oz, approx 63 times. If they were really serious, they would use the people from the Evergrande type projects. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

Classic conservative back to front thinking...

Nope. The IPCC, whom you adore, has said in one of its reports, that emissions must peak within 3 years.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2314731-global-emissions-must-peak-in-just-...

But you are saying we have more than 10 years. And China up to 35 years. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

Guard devices can be fitted.

Guard devices? What you want to give them ear plugs? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:01pm:

The Oz govt. should fund and build the world's largest solar farm - at no cost to you (other than a resource 'oppotiunbity' cost).

So about 6 billion dollars and it will only be "opportunity cost". Remember, MMT says they have to adjust for inflation. That is inflationary. Increased inflation increases taxes.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #521 - May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:15pm:

But solar panels are quick to erect, they are cheaper...so why not build in solar panels instead of longer term solutions like Coal plant. Roll Eyes

You forgot already; the brand new grid, state interconnectors and required storage? - $500 billion your estimate for Oz.

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They need 50 boring machines? Why? China has many more people than Oz, approx 63 times. If they were really serious, they would use the people from the Evergrande type projects. Roll Eyes

Picks and shovels and trowels? Much slower than boring machines....

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The IPCC, whom you adore, has said in one of its reports, that emissions must peak within 3 years.

Well then, that means we have to stop everything, and devote all economic activity to the transition (apart from maintaing food production). Insane wars and arms races (inc. subs) are out, for a start. Do we want civilization to exist?

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But you are saying we have more than 10 years. And China up to 35 years. Roll Eyes

I am saying get on with the transition ASAP. The 1st world has signed up to net zero by 2050, only a decade before China (and 2 decades before India iirc)

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Guard devices? What you want to give them ear plugs? Grin

No; sonic warnings, and non-injurious physical barriers.

Quote:

So about 6 billion dollars and it will only be "opportunity cost". Remember, MMT says they have to adjust for inflation. That is inflationary. Increased inflation increases taxes.

I love exposing your ignorance about money:

MMT says supply of available resources must balance demand for resources, to avoid inflation. Spot the difference?

Note: "opportunity cost" is a resource cost, not a money cost; money is always created ex nihilo.

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« Last Edit: May 17^th, 2023 at 12:53pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #522 - May 17^th, 2023 at 1:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

You forgot already; the brand new grid, state interconnectors and required storage? - $500 billion your estimate for Oz.

Nope. I was talking about China - 63 Times Australia's population.

And it was 620 Billions for OZ.

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/145Country/22-145Countri...

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

Picks and shovels and trowels? Much slower than boring machines...

China has far more powerful machines than pick and shovels. Roll Eyes

"'Great Wall', China's largest tunnel borer, to weaken foreign firms' monopoly"

"XCMG builds “world’s largest” 400 t XDE440 mining truck for Zijin Mining and China Minmetals"

You seem to have this naive view that China is really, really, low on the mechanised workforce state. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

Well then, that means we have to stop everything, and devote all economic activity to the transition (apart from maintaing food production).

But you don't want China to participate. And we need fossil fuels for fertiliser. Something else China is great at. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

I am saying get on with the transition ASAP. The 1st world has signed up to net zero by 2050, only a decade before China (and 2 decades before India iirc)

But emissions from China and India are the highest. And India also has a large mechanised workforce. Roll Eyes

So the solar panels are cheap, they have a mechanised workforce, they can build solar far faster than ff infrastructure. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

No; sonic warnings, and non-injurious physical barriers.

Sonic Warnings are themselves harmful. Non-Injurious barriers? Like BIG shark nets to keep them from migrating? Oh dear. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

I love exposing your ignorance about money:

You are the one said MMT had to keep a tight reign on inflation. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 12:48pm:

MMT says supply of available resources must balance demand for resources, to avoid inflation

But the available manufactured resources are from overseas, mainly China. That creates a balance of payments problem, which of itself is inflationary. And we know China uses FF to create Solar panels, wind turbines etc. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #523 - May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm

lee wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 1:46pm:

I'm talking about China

I'm talking about the whole world, as we must.

[/quote]China has far more powerful machines than pick and shovels. Roll Eyes

[/quote]

And China must build 60 times the infratstructure, which will take longer than Oz because China must lift its living standards at the same time (unlike Oz)

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But you don't want China to participate. And we need fossil fuels for fertiliser. Something else China is great at. Roll Eyes

More of your crippled comprehension; every nation must participate regardless of each nation's resources ie some will need assistance.

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But emissions from China and India are the highest. And India also has a large mechanised workforce. Roll Eyes

Irrelevant, as pointed out above. EVERY nation must transition using all avaialbel resources ...ASAP....

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So the solar panels are cheap, they have a mechanised workforce, they can build solar far faster than ff infrastructure. Roll Eyes

[/quote ]

Already proved wrong: buiding storage and transmission grids takes years.

[quote]But the available manufactured resources are from overseas, mainly China.

Interesingly, paranoid Western "freedom" ideologues are accusing China of employing 'forced labour' to produce PVs....and want Oz to produce its own PVs. Madness.

Quote:

That creates a balance of payments problem, which of itself is inflationary.

In your delusional (self-interested) world overseen by the the US stooge the IMF ("Instant Misery Fund"), which forces governments to borrow money "which must be repaid with interest".

Quote:

And we know China uses FF to create Solar panels, wind turbines etc. Roll Eyes

Of course, while they are trying to keep the lights on for 600 million poor people, while being the world's factory.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #524 - May 17^th, 2023 at 3:11pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

And China must build 60 times the infratstructure, which will take longer than Oz because China must lift its living standards at the same time (unlike Oz)

Nope. More machines makes it less times than Oz. With such a large workforce it is easy to upskill. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

More of your crippled comprehension; every nation must participate regardless of each nation's resources ie some will need assistance.

But China is out until at least 2035 but more likely 2050. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

Irrelevant, as pointed out above. EVERY nation must transition using all avaialbel resources ...ASAP....

But NOT India and China. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

Interesingly, paranoid Western "freedom" ideologues are accusing China of employing 'forced labour' to produce PVs....and want Oz to produce its own PVs. Madness.

Yes they are using forced labour but unfortunately we have an expensive workforce and a low population. That means we do have economy of scale to do it here. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

In your delusional (self-interested) world overseen by the the US stooge the IMF ("Instant Misery Fund"), which forces governments to borrow money "which must be repaid with interest".

So you want a world where everything is free. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 17^th, 2023 at 2:16pm:

Of course, while they are trying to keep the lights on for 600 million poor people, while being the world's factory.

You miss the point. They are made with FF. They can't be made any other way. Roll Eyes

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