Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121339 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #435 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 7:31am
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15591 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #436 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 10:47am Bobby. wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 7:31am: https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/136/687/453/original/6cb802... Well......the numbers in Parliament say close the coal industry. Pity about that...
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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #437 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:01pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Yes - nationalization of energy is the way to go; Qatar gets $25 billion, Oz gets peanuts as private price-gougers retain most of the profits from OUR resources.

Seeing as the resources are held by the states, which ones are YOURS? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Er ....Pavlina presumably doesn't have "wet dreams" ....

So she's not a woman? Oh dear. But tell us how she knows about jobs, apart from writing a book. Never had a real job. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Because the private sector is hindering the required infrastructure rollout, in order to protect private sector profits.

But the investors are the private sector and if the returns are so good, why aren't they piling in? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

o, he read the engineers' reports, and refuted the neoclassical deadheads assertion that we "can't afford" said engineering.

Then of course you can link to the engineers reports. And don't forget Snowy 2.0 delayed again and costing more again.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

That's the engineering-costing department's job.

But you just said keen has got this all covered having read the reports. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #438 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm

lee wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:01pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1^st, 2023 at 9:03pm:

Yes - nationalization of energy is the way to go; Qatar gets $25 billion, Oz gets peanuts as private price-gougers retain most of the profits from OUR resources.

Seeing as the resources are held by the states, which ones are YOURS? Roll Eyes

The federal governement is the chief financier of the states. Oz resources belong to all Oz citizens.

( grasping for straws? - I suppose the old states' rights shiboleth was worth a try...)

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So she's not a woman? Oh dear. But tell us how she knows about jobs, apart from writing a book. Never had a real job. Roll Eyes

"Can people who have vaginas experience wet dreams? Absolutely! Though the abundance of research and literature out there on wet dreams may make it seem as if only teenage penis owners have them.20 Jan 2022 [/quote]

(Oh...never mind). But her understanding of economics and employment is sound, nothing to do with "wet dreams".

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But the investors are the private sector and if the returns are so good, why aren't they piling in? Roll Eyes

That's the problem, they are only interested in profits, and there isn't as much profit in free sunshine and wind....

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Then of course you can link to the engineers reports. And don't forget Snowy 2.0 delayed again and costing more again.

Just shows the Oz govt. can't build anything after decades of privatization.

China would have completed it on budget and on time a decade ago.

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But you just said keen has got this all covered having read the reports. Roll Eyes

No , Keen is the economist pointing out the idiocy of interest-bearing debt-funding, for an essential public good.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #439 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:58pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 10:47am:

Bobby. wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 7:31am:

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/136/687/453/original/6cb802...

Well......the numbers in Parliament say close the coal industry.

Pity about that...

But do we have the renewable energy resources to replace it right now?

Why has electricity doubled and tripled in price?

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #440 - May 2^nd, 2023 at 6:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

( grasping for straws? - I suppose the old states' rights shiboleth was worth a try...)

So you don't know that the states own the resources within their boundaries. That doesn't shock me at all. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

(Oh...never mind). But her understanding of economics and employment is sound, nothing to do with "wet dreams".

And she has still never had a job outside academia. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

That's the problem, they are only interested in profits, and there isn't as much profit in free sunshine and wind....

Wrong. As they are in competition with FF, they only need to undercut by a small margin to make big profits. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

Just shows the Oz govt. can't build anything after decades of privatization.

Bu you want to rely on the Oz Gov't to build these things. Make up your mind. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

China would have completed it on budget and on time a decade ago.

Would they? Do you have proof? Their 3 Gorges dam ain't so hot.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

No , Keen is the economist pointing out the idiocy of interest-bearing debt-funding, for an essential public good.

So where is the evidence that he has looked at the cost and requirements? Roll Eyes

Oh, he has modelled it. Grin

"Modelling the energy and economic damage of climate change"

https://era.org.au/modelling-the-energy-and-economic-damage-of-climate-change/

Modelling isn't engineered. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #441 - May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am

lee wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 6:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2023 at 5:48pm:

( grasping for straws? - I suppose the old states' rights shiboleth was worth a try...)

So you don't know that the states own the resources within their boundaries. That doesn't shock me at all. Roll Eyes

er...the "states" shouldn't exist at all (...Gough knew that).

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And she has still never had a job outside academia. Roll Eyes

Her job is full time exposing the insane NAIRU dogma of gruesome neoclassical ideologues like Philip Lowe.
Last night Alan Kohher observed that Lowe was deliberately trying to increase unemployment from 3.5% to 4.5%", to "manage" inflation.

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Wrong. As they are in competition with FF, they only need to undercut by a small margin to make big profits. Roll Eyes

After a solar farm is built, there are no profits - in a government-owned system.

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Bu you want to rely on the Oz Gov't to build these things.. Roll Eyes

Correct. So the govt. must relearn how to do it.

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Would they? Do you have proof? Their 3 Gorges dam ain't so hot.

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/china-completes-constructi...

China completes construction of (world's) second biggest hydro plant (after the 3 gorges)

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So where is the evidence that he has looked at the cost and requirements? Roll Eyes

The engineers showed him the infrastructure can be built.

Keen's job is to inform gruesome neoclassical economists we can afford it...

Quote:

"Modelling the energy and economic damage of climate change"

https://era.org.au/modelling-the-energy-and-economic-damage-of-climate-change/

Modelling isn't engineered. Roll Eyes

AGW relies on modelling, economic reality doesn't.

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #442 - May 3^rd, 2023 at 1:22pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

er...the "states" shouldn't exist at all (...Gough knew that).

And yet that's what you have. You would need a referendum to change that. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

Her job is full time exposing the insane NAIRU dogma of gruesome neoclassical ideologues like Philip Lowe.

Wow. They give anybody a job these days in universities. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

After a solar farm is built, there are no profits - in a government-owned system.

And no costs, no maintenance. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

Correct. So the govt. must relearn how to do it.

If the government has never learned it, then they can't re-learn. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/china-completes-constructi...

China completes construction of (world's) second biggest hydro plant (after the 3 gorges)

Nothing there about on time or on budget. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 11:53am:

The engineers showed him the infrastructure can be built.

But you said he knew the costs. How can you save if you don't know the costs.
I can build a boat. Doesn't mean it will float. Roll Eyes

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #443 - May 3^rd, 2023 at 2:43pm

lee wrote on May 3^rd, 2023 at 1:22pm:

And yet that's what you have. You would need a referendum to change that. Roll Eyes

But greedy 'states' rights' ideologues like you would block it.

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They give anybody a job these days in universities.

Obvious nonsense.

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And no costs, no maintenance

Wow ...a few maintenance workers - now there's an investment opportunity Black Rock will be interested in...

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If the government has never learned it, then they can't re-learn. Roll Eyes

The govt. built snowy 1, with the help of clever engineer refugees (funded by deficit spending), but later shut down its public engineering department after gruesome Thatcherite economics took hold.

Quote:

Nothing there about on time or on budget. Roll Eyes

In short, China poured more concrete 2010-2013 than the US did in the entire 20th century...

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But you said he knew the costs. How can you save if you don't know the costs.

No, your comprehension is poor. I said he knows HOW to pay for it, whatever the engineering-costing departments say it will cost.

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I can build a boat. Doesn't mean it will float. Roll Eyes

in your case, we can be sure it won't float....better buy one from china...

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« Last Edit: May 3^rd, 2023 at 2:51pm by thegreatdivide »

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #444 - May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #445 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #446 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:36am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

The IPCC has gone easy on countries like China that contribute by far the most CO2.
Australia's CO2 is a drop in the ocean.

It's hypocrisy.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #447 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:47am

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:36am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

The IPCC has gone easy on countries like China that contribute by far the most CO2.
Australia's CO2 is a drop in the ocean.

It's hypocrisy.

I think its COP26 etc - forced to deal with political/economic realities of poverty in the developing world - rather than the IPCC, who are to 'blame'.

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Bobby.

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #448 - May 4^th, 2023 at 11:55am

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:47am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:36am:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:28am:

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 10:02am:

The Greens don't want you to see this as it confirms
that any climate action we take is a drop in the ocean compared
to what other countries are doing to increase CO2 levels.
The Green targets are only symbolic yet they try to make out that
it will make a measurable difference.
The Greens are liars.
Now with Albo's minority Govt the Greens will have Albo over a barrel.

https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/106/957/161/original/260a79...

Well...the Greens are among the few actually following the IPCC recommendations.

Shouldn't you be condemning the IPCC instead?

The IPCC has gone easy on countries like China that contribute by far the most CO2.
Australia's CO2 is a drop in the ocean.

It's hypocrisy.

I think its COP26 etc - forced to deal with political/economic realities of poverty in the developing world - rather than the IPCC, who are to 'blame'.

So they give a blank cheque to China to do whatever they want?

Meanwhile we're in big trouble -
electricity has doubled and tripled in price -
some factories may have to close due to the cost of gas and other energy -
pensioners will have to survive the coming Winter without heating -
how many will die from the cold?

The Marxist Greens don't care.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #449 - May 4^th, 2023 at 12:26pm

Bobby. wrote on May 4^th, 2023 at 11:55am:

So they give a blank cheque to China to do whatever they want?

Well, they have to ensure living standards in the developing world continue to rise during the transition.....

As for China, it's already the world's largest producer of renewables, but the need to lift its per capita income above current levels requires increasing coal consumption until renewables technology can replace coal.

In Oz we are not faced with the same problem: a mere 25 million people - the population of a large Chinese city - living in a developed economy on a sunny, windy desert the size of China can easily exit coal.

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Meanwhile we're in big trouble -
electricity has doubled and tripled in price -
some factories may have to close due to the cost of gas and other energy -
pensioners will have to survive the coming Winter without heating -
how many will die from the cold?

all true; but you are hung up on the "how do we pay for it" (ie, transition to renewables) question, because you don't understand how the modern monetary system works.

Quote:

The Marxist Greens don't care.

I agree they are only looking at Oz, whereas we are facing a global problem.

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