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The fallacy of the Greens (Read 67629 times)
lee
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #420 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:50pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:30pm:
But W and C don't want to contribute toward the necessary taxes - given the current gruesome neoclassical orthodoxy - required to 'pay for'  the transition.


What taxes don't they pay? The transition is a chimera. The renewables don't have enough energy density.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:30pm:
So the Oz public will have to pay to extract its own resources, while the fossil companies make huge profits on the back of global prices.


No the ff companies can do it, pay the associated royalties. It just takes the will to tell companies that they must set aside a percentage for domestic consumption, as has happened in WA.

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Bobby.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #421 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:59pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 3:35pm:
Unfortunately the Greens aren't yet prepared to teach the public** there are no purely financial constraints on the OZ treasury funding the necessary rollout of renewables infrastructure - including the transmission upgrade, ASAP.

ie fast enough to keep pace with and eventually overtake the closure of fossil plants.

After which power prices plummet.....

**because they are concerned they won't win votes from the public who know nothing about money, like you.
But it's a losing strategy in the long run, because Green policies can't be implemented under present neoclassical "dismal science" - balanced government budget dogma.



The Green's ideas are collapsing before our eyes as
coal fired power stations are blown up or closed
and there is no sufficient renewable capacity to supply our needs -
and power prices have doubled and even tripled.

Be prepared for power blackouts.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #422 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:03pm
 
lee wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:50pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:30pm:
But W and C don't want to contribute toward the necessary taxes - given the current gruesome neoclassical orthodoxy - required to 'pay for'  the transition.


What taxes don't they pay?


Fair taxes on the privilege of making profits on our resources.

Quote:
The transition is a chimera. The renewables don't have enough energy density.


The public don't believe you; E = mc2, and the Sahara can power the globe, regardless of energy density. There's already twice as much power as the globe needs.  
Quote:
No the ff companies can do it, pay the associated royalties. It just takes the will to tell companies that they must set aside a percentage for domestic consumption, as has happened in WA.


The public don't like fracking which is the only remaining source of gas in the Oz east coast; hence it's time to start cancelling some of those overseas contracts, until ffs can be closed down all togeher.

Get ready for standed assets everywhere....
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #423 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:07pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:59pm:
The Green's ideas are collapsing before our eyes as
coal fired power stations are blown up or closed
and there is no sufficient renewable capacity to supply our needs -
and power prices have doubled and even tripled.

Be prepared for power blackouts.


Well...isn't that what I said?
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Bobby.
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #424 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:10pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:07pm:
Bobby. wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 5:59pm:
The Green's ideas are collapsing before our eyes as
coal fired power stations are blown up or closed
and there is no sufficient renewable capacity to supply our needs -
and power prices have doubled and even tripled.

Be prepared for power blackouts.


Well...isn't that what I said?



Good - we agree.

Channel 7 news just now.
Millions of people will be forced into poverty due to power prices this winter.
They won't be able to afford heating.

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lee
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #425 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:45pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:03pm:
Fair taxes on the privilege of making profits on our resources.


So apart from PRRT, Royalties to state governments which own the assets and company and employment taxes; what should they pay? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:03pm:
The public don't believe you; E = mc2, and the Sahara can power the globe, regardless of energy density. There's already twice as much power as the globe needs.   


The public are in the main part deluded into believing the green dream. If there is twice as much power as the world needs why do we have blackouts, brownouts etc. It obviously isn't available when required. Roll Eyes

So how much does the Sahara need to power? How many GW? Storage in GWh?

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:03pm:
The public don't like fracking which is the only remaining source of gas in the Oz east coast; hence it's time to start cancelling some of those overseas contracts, until ffs can be closed down all togeher.


Ok. So you want overseas contracts curtailed. And who will pay the huge sums of compensation when they don't get product. It can't be the seller, they are willing. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:03pm:
Get ready for standed assets everywhere....



Stranded assets only occur if there is no market. So far not one country has achieved nirvana of not needing fossil fuels. Roll Eyes
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #426 - Apr 29th, 2023 at 11:23pm
 
lee wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:45pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 6:03pm:
Fair taxes on the privilege of making profits on our resources.


So apart from PRRT, Royalties to state governments which own the assets and company and employment taxes; what should they pay? Roll Eyes


A PRRT which actually amounts to real money -  note:  the Qatar state earned $25 billion from its gas exports last year, Oz with a similar volume earned....  peanuts.

"In the decade prior to the opening of the Gladstone LNG port when Australia’s LNG exports soared, company taxes and the petroleum resource rent tax (PRRT) paid by the industry averaged about 15% of revenue. Since then, it has averaged 6%, and was just 3.3% in 2019-20."

Quote:
The public are in the main part deluded into believing the green dream.


True, so suck it up....

Quote:
If there is twice as much power as the world needs why do we have blackouts, brownouts etc. It obviously isn't available when required. Roll Eyes


because ff companies are resisting the rollout of renewables, and governments think they can't fund a fast rollout without private sector support - the same private sector who are resisting the rollout of renewables...you get the picture. 

Quote:
So how much does the Sahara need to power? How many GW? Storage in GWh?


Let's start with Europe, to determine how much, and then keep going. Meanwhile China is rolling out nuclear at an impressive rate.

Quote:
Ok. So you want overseas contracts curtailed. And who will pay the huge sums of compensation when they don't get product. It can't be the seller, they are willing. Roll Eyes


Russia and the ME have vast reserves of cheaper gas (easiier to mine)  than Oz.

Quote:
Stranded assets only occur if there is no market. So far not one country has achieved nirvana of not needing fossil fuels. Roll Eyes


Patience dear fellow. The green energy mania is steadily increasing...
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lee
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #427 - Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:03pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 11:23pm:
A PRRT which actually amounts to real money -  note:  the Qatar state earned $25 billion from its gas exports last year, Oz with a similar volume earned....  peanuts.


Qatar only made that much from a state owned monopoly? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 11:23pm:
In the decade prior to the opening of the Gladstone LNG port when Australia’s LNG exports soared, company taxes and the petroleum resource rent tax (PRRT) paid by the industry averaged about 15% of revenue. Since then, it has averaged 6%, and was just 3.3% in 2019-20."


BIG discrepancy. PRRT ALONE in 2022 was $926 million. Try comparing apples to donuts, instead of apples to dung. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 11:23pm:
True, so suck it up....


I am glad you agree that they are deluded. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #428 - Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:48pm
 
lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:03pm:
Qatar only made that much from a state owned monopoly? Roll Eyes


Which just goes to show how the state can collect $25billion/year on gas exports alone, when you cut out the greedy ff companies.  While Oz gains peanuts. .

Quote:
BIG discrepancy. PRRT ALONE in 2022 was $926 million. Try comparing apples to donuts, instead of apples to dung. Roll Eyes


That's right: peanuts.

Quote:
I am glad you agree that they are deluded.


Nah...I'm riding on AGW to achieve  a better world with cheap, clean power,   regardless of its veracity.

btw,  re engineering the transition to 100% renewables:

https://profstevekeen.substack.com/p/the-fast-track-to-net-zero?utm_source=subst...

The Fast Track to Net Zero

"There is no engineering obstacle".
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lee
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #429 - Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:36pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:48pm:
Which just goes to show how the state can collect $25billion/year on gas exports alone, when you cut out the greedy ff companies.  While Oz gains peanuts. .


So how would you do it? Proclaim eminent domain and simply strip assets? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:48pm:
That's right: peanuts.


No it is not.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:48pm:
Nah...I'm riding on AGW to achieve  a better world with cheap, clean power,   regardless of its veracity.


But you did agree that they were deluded.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2023 at 11:23pm:
Quote:
The public are in the main part deluded into believing the green dream.


True, so suck it up....


thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:48pm:
https://profstevekeen.substack.com/p/the-fast-track-to-net-zero?
utm_source=subst...

The Fast Track to Net Zero


So let's look at that. From the UK -

Quote:
No bricks, the walls and foundations made of compacted earth, cement made from clay and glass scavenged from demolition skips are just some of the construction changes needed to comply with Net Zero by 2050. The latest paper from Government-funded U.K. FIRES looks to “minimise new construction”, and notes the shape of the urban environment will change, allowing for “denser living and reduced transport needs”.

The latest U.K. FIRES paper seems to have slipped out quietly at the end of last year and has to date attracted little publicity. But the group, which comprises a number of academics led by Cambridge engineering professor Julian Allwood, made headlines around the world recently with previous work noting that all flying and shipping must stop by 2050, beef and lamb must be banned, and only 60% of energy will be available to cook food and heat homes. The group, which receives £5 million from Government sources,  is interesting because it bases its recommendations on the brutal, and many would argue honest, reality of absolute Net Zero. It does not assume that technological processes still to be perfected or even invented will somehow lead to minimal disturbance in comfortable industrialised lifestyles. It could be further argued that its continued existence and pronouncements are important, since they highlight the dishonesty and deceit that surrounds many other Net Zero promoters.

U.K. FIRES sees the future of construction based on stone, earth and timber, along with components “reused and repurposed” from demolition. Recycled steel, cement and bricks can be used, although this will be “constrained” – rationed might be a better word – by a supply of “non-emitting electricity under high demand”. Transformational construction changes will take longer to achieve, state the authors, but the U.K.’s ambitious target of a 45% reduction in emissions by 2030, “can only be achieved through reduced material demand”.

Building without bricks is an interesting suggestion and over two billion are currently produced each year. But bricks require high firing temperatures, and the enormous cost of Net Zero energy makes them uneconomic to produce. Cement also requires energy to make but it can be mixed with calcined clay. Nevertheless, calcined clay is also energy intensive and can only supplement 50% of Portland cement. “As a result, the mass low-cost consumption of concrete will no longer exist,” the authors note. Together, bricks and cement generate annual turnover of over £10 billion. Rammed earth, which can be used for foundation screeds and walls, is said to be a proven and potentially zero emission alternative, “which can utilise abundant local materials”.

Glass looks to be a complete no-no, with production requiring temperatures of 1,700°C and producing additional process emissions which cannot be avoided by electrification. Only recycled glass seems to be acceptable for the absolutist authors, so the need for complete circularity, “will somewhat constrain the supply of glass”. However, add the authors helpfully, this will “encourage direct re-use and reconditioning of glass panels from demolition sites”.

Steel is widely used in modern construction due to its large load-bearing properties. Around the world, recycled steel accounts for about a third of current production. To have zero emissions from producing steel relies on energy-intensive carbon capture and storage technology, which the authors observe, with their customary honesty, “is unlikely to be economical by 2050”. In the U.K., 85% of steel is already recycled, and it is explained that the Net Zero transition will heavily restrict its supply. Recycling of aluminium is said to be the “preferred zero emission compatible pathway”, and this will lead to “higher prices due to a restricted supply of the material”.


https://dailysceptic.org/2023/04/28/no-bricks-no-glass-no-cement-what-net-zero-2...

So tell us of the engineering feats of Steve Keen. Tell us how he imagines using 60% of the current available power whilst increasing grid draw due to EV's.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #430 - Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:58pm
 
lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:36pm:
So how would you do it? Proclaim eminent domain and simply strip assets? Roll Eyes


You mean nationalize the FF industry, close it down ASAP, and transfer all the assets?    Indeed.

Note: Norway has just announced plans to nationalize its entire gas pipeline network, on the way to the ff industry's eventual closure. 

Quote:
No it is not.


Might pay for the Hobart football oval; whereas $25 billion can pay for lifting JS (though the government should be abolishing JS and offering suitable  paid training at TAFE, if actual jobs aren't available).

Quote:
But you did agree that they were deluded.


Did I? I thought I said "regardless of its veracity..."  Too subtle for you?

Quote:
So let's look at that. From the UK -


The article isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK...

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lee
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #431 - Apr 30th, 2023 at 4:06pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:58pm:
You mean nationalize the FF industry, close it down ASAP, and transfer all the assets?    Indeed.


So what happens to investment in Australia generally once that is done? It would make us a trading partner no-one would want.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:58pm:
Might pay for the Hobart football oval; whereas $25 billion can pay for lifting JS (though the government should be abolishing JS and offering suitable  paid training at TAFE, if actual jobs aren't available).


So if jobs aren't available, what is the point of training? You want a more qualified dole? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:58pm:
Did I? I thought I said "regardless of its veracity..."  Too subtle for you?


You can't even lie straight.lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 1:03pm:
thegreatdivide wrote Yesterday at 9:23pm:
True, so suck it up....


thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:58pm:
The article isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK...


"Our Vision

With fewer than thirty years to attain zero emissions, UK FIRES is uncovering the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050 by:-

    Optimizing current industrial techniques with new decision making tools
    Uncovering gaps in the business space to be filled in by entrepreneurship, finance and policy
    Extensive public engagement through innovative communication channels"

Edit: "Every year since 1990, the reference date of the Climate Change act, the cars on the roads of the UK have become heavier, internal temperatures in winter have risen, the rate at which we discard goods and buildings has increased and the number of flights we’ve taken has increased. This makes no sense. With fewer than thirty years left, UK FIRES is revealing the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050."

https://ukfires.org/our-vision/

So you are right it "isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK" Roll Eyes

But you didn't tell us about Keen's Engineering qualifications. Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: Apr 30th, 2023 at 4:13pm by lee »  
 
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #432 - May 1st, 2023 at 9:23am
 
lee wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 4:06pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2023 at 2:58pm:
You mean nationalize the FF industry, close it down ASAP, and transfer all the assets?    Indeed.


So what happens to investment in Australia generally once that is done? It would make us a trading partner no-one would want.


Er....you said Qatar has a state-owned gas industry.

Quote:
So if jobs aren't available, what is the point of training? You want a more qualified dole? ::


There are lots of jobs available but Coalition dead-heads defunded TAFE, preferring to bring in cheap overseas labor.
Note: there is always useful work to be done, govt can always act as employer of last resort.(ELR)

https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/the-case-for-a-job-guarantee/

Quote:
"Our Vision

With fewer than thirty years to attain zero emissions, UK FIRES is uncovering the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050 by:-

    Optimizing current industrial techniques with new decision making tools
    Uncovering gaps in the business space to be filled in by entrepreneurship, finance and policy
    Extensive public engagement through innovative communication channels"

Edit: "Every year since 1990, the reference date of the Climate Change act, the cars on the roads of the UK have become heavier, internal temperatures in winter have risen, the rate at which we discard goods and buildings has increased and the number of flights we’ve taken has increased. This makes no sense. With fewer than thirty years left, UK FIRES is revealing the lowest risk path to zero emissions prosperity in the UK by 2050."

https://ukfires.org/our-vision/

So you are right it "isn't from some delusional neoclassical outfit in the UK" Roll Eyes


The highlighted: we need much more public sector engagement ie mandated activity; the profit-seeking private sector won't "uncover gaps in the business space", without public sector assurances and planning. 

Quote:
But you didn't tell us about Keen's Engineering qualifications. Roll Eyes


Keen was the messenger for the engineers.

PS you still don't get that I'm agnostic on AGW, but pro clean (ie, non-polluting, apart from CO2 emissions), cheap global energy.
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« Last Edit: May 1st, 2023 at 9:32am by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #433 - May 1st, 2023 at 6:25pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 1st, 2023 at 9:23am:
Er....you said Qatar has a state-owned gas industry.


Yes. Did you have a point? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1st, 2023 at 9:23am:
There are lots of jobs available but Coalition dead-heads defunded TAFE, preferring to bring in cheap overseas labor.
Note: there is always useful work to be done, govt can always act as employer of last resort.(ELR)



Ah yes the MMT wet dream. It will probably be your only means of employment.

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1st, 2023 at 9:23am:
The highlighted: we need much more public sector engagement ie mandated activity; the profit-seeking private sector won't "uncover gaps in the business space", without public sector assurances and planning. 



But if Renewables are so cheap and so profitable, why is there lack of action? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1st, 2023 at 9:23am:
Keen was the messenger for the engineers.


He was? Did he bring it down the mountain on tablets of stone? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on May 1st, 2023 at 9:23am:
PS you still don't get that I'm agnostic on AGW, but pro clean (ie, non-polluting, apart from CO2 emissions), cheap global energy.



And yet you still can't quantify the amount  of renewables needed or the storage. But apparently the Sahara will cover it despite dust and sand storms. And of course the highly paid workers to keep them clean. Water? Roll Eyes
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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #434 - May 1st, 2023 at 9:03pm
 
lee wrote on May 1st, 2023 at 6:25pm:
Did you have a point? Roll Eyes


Yes - nationalization of energy is the way to go; Qatar gets $25 billion, Oz gets peanuts as private price-gougers retain most of the profits from OUR resources.

Quote:
Ah yes the MMT wet dream. It will probably be your only means of employment.


Er ....Pavlina presumably doesn't have "wet dreams" ....


Quote:
But if Renewables are so cheap and so profitable, why is there lack of action? Roll Eyes


Because the private sector is hindering the required infrastructure rollout, in order to protect private sector profits. 

Quote:
He was? Did he bring it down the mountain on tablets of stone? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


No, he read the engineers' reports, and refuted the neoclassical deadheads assertion that we "can't afford" said  engineering.

Quote:
  And yet you still can't quantify the amount  of renewables needed or the storage. But apparently the Sahara will cover it despite dust and sand storms. And of course the highly paid workers to keep them clean. Water? Roll Eyes


That's the engineering-costing department's job.


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« Last Edit: May 1st, 2023 at 9:10pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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