Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #210 - Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm

lee wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 7:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 5:41pm:

Exactly! (It's a convenience...which can be created out of thin air...)

So the inflationary effect of money is non-existent. Roll Eyes

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

So, deal with the resource constraints, money devaluation is a scam foisted on us by greedy financiers demanding interest on loans....created out of thin air.

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Wow. How did an illiterate Green go? Grin

He's learning, as will the new generation of economists attending MMT courses at Torrens Uni, beginning this year.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #211 - Jul 11^th, 2022 at 6:04pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 10^th, 2022 at 7:54pm:

Did the Greens look at Zimbabwe or Sri Lanka to see how MMT works?

No, they know the economic situation in Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka are entirely different; the former experienced internal hyper-inflation (when productive white farmers were forced of their farms by Mugabe), the latter caused by lack of foreign exchange.

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18 months ago economists were warning this voodoo economics called MMT could lead to disaster, it made your hero Mr Mosler pretty rich selling books to gullible idiots who bludge and vote who we call green supporters.

MMT is illegal at present, that's why central banks aren't permitted to issue debt-free money.

eg the Oz government had to (sell) buy $20 billion of bonds a month at the start of the pandemic, to get rid of those unemployment queues stretching around entire city blocks.....and now we are told the government is broke, with a $trillion debt...madness.

All examined in #204, MMT thread:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1645944963/new

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #212 - Jul 11^th, 2022 at 10:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

And yet you also say money is a free bottom less pit. It can't be both.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

He's learning, as will the new generation of economists attending MMT courses at Torrens Uni, beginning this year.

From a Sri Lankan? Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #213 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 10:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

And yet you also say money is a free bottom less pit. It can't be both.

Gosh, commucation is a difficult thing (perhaps that's why our world is so broken).

Let's see:

1. "money is limitless, for a currency-issuer".

2. "money is a free bottom-less pit" (for a currency-issuer)

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

Quote:

From a Sri Lankan? Wink

Actually Sri Lanka has broken one of the cardinal rules of MMT: a nation should NEVER borrow in a foreign currency.

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

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« Last Edit: Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:13am by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #214 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 11:31am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

It doesn't address the inflation which is a part of your free bottomless pit. Grin

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #215 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:00pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 10:34pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 11^th, 2022 at 5:48pm:

Inflation is a resource availability problem, stop going around in circles. You already know money is limitless for a currency-issuer, resources aren't.

And yet you also say money is a free bottom less pit. It can't be both.

Gosh, commucation is a difficult thing (perhaps that's why our world is so broken).

Let's see:

1. "money is limitless, for a currency-issuer".

2. "money is a free bottom-less pit" (for a currency-issuer)

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

Quote:

From a Sri Lankan? Wink

Actually Sri Lanka has broken one of the cardinal rules of MMT: a nation should NEVER borrow in a foreign currency.

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

Hyperinflation
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hyperinflation.asp

Sri Lanka

In Sri Lanka, inflation reached 54.6% in June while the central bank raised interest rates to 15.5%. This means that workers in Sri Lanka are losing savings by the second, while debt repayments have increased, putting strain on household budgets. The government has failed to honor foreign debt, and the IMF has demanded that it raise taxes and combat corruption as a condition for receiving a bailout loan.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rufaskamau/2022/07/11/inflation-protests-span-sri-l...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #216 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

It doesn't address the inflation which is a part of your free bottomless pit. Grin

That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem.

For example, in a barter economy, lack of supply might be solved by a gentleman's agreement, or a spear in the back....

In a money economy, the issue is sorted by "inflation", with central banks raising interest rates to cause unemployment to reduce demand......not much different than individuals fighting one another over lack of supply with spears, I suppose.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #217 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:44pm

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:00pm:

Sri Lanka

In Sri Lanka, inflation reached 54.6% in June while the central bank raised interest rates to 15.5%. This means that workers in Sri Lanka are losing savings by the second, while debt repayments have increased, putting strain on household budgets. The government has failed to honor foreign debt, and the IMF has demanded that it raise taxes and combat corruption as a condition for receiving a bailout loan.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rufaskamau/2022/07/11/inflation-protests-span-sri-l...

Ah ha; the old IMF (Instant Misery Fund) prescription of raising taxes (as if ordinary people in Sri Lanka can pay any taxes at all...) , when every conservative Neo-Keynesian economist urges governments to lower taxes.

Sri Lanka's problems are caused by shortage of foreign exchange following collapse in covid-related tourism income; collapse in government income due to - you guessed it - introducing lower income taxes demanded by the rich; and a poorly thought out (supposedly environmentally friendly) scheme to introduce organic farming, which resulted in loss of food production.

Note: higher prices - aka "inflation" - as a result of all these factors, is not the result of "printing money", but IS due to lack of of supply including shortages of food and imported fuel, as noted above.

AND government borrowing in a foreign currency, a cardinal sin in MMT:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

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« Last Edit: Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:52pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #218 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm:

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 11:31am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:06am:

Both statements are identical (though 2 is sloppy English, eg, not 'is' but 'can be' - for a currency-issuer); can you try to think clearly and point to the difference between the 2 statements ?

It doesn't address the inflation which is a part of your free bottomless pit. Grin

That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem.

For example, in a barter economy, lack of supply might be solved by a gentleman's agreement, or a spear in the back....

In a money economy, the issue is sorted by "inflation", with central banks raising interest rates to cause unemployment to reduce demand......not much different than individuals fighting one another over lack of supply with spears, I suppose.

Lack of supply is government-induced (see energy prices). Excess money printing is government- made (see insane subsidies over the last 2 years).

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #219 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:00pm:

Sri Lanka

In Sri Lanka, inflation reached 54.6% in June while the central bank raised interest rates to 15.5%. This means that workers in Sri Lanka are losing savings by the second, while debt repayments have increased, putting strain on household budgets. The government has failed to honor foreign debt, and the IMF has demanded that it raise taxes and combat corruption as a condition for receiving a bailout loan.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rufaskamau/2022/07/11/inflation-protests-span-sri-l...

Ah ha; the old IMF (Instant Misery Fund) prescription of raising taxes (as if ordinary people in Sri Lanka can pay any taxes at all...) , when every conservative Neo-Keynesian economist urges governments to lower taxes.

Sri Lanka's problems are caused by shortage of foreign exchange following collapse in covid-related tourism income; collapse in government income due to - you guessed it - introducing lower income taxes demanded by the rich; and a poorly thought out (supposedly environmentally friendly) scheme to introduce organic farming, which resulted in loss of food production.

Note: higher prices - aka "inflation" - as a result of all these factors, is not the result of "printing money", but IS due to lack of of supply including shortages of food and fuel, as noted above.

AND government borrowing in a foreign currency, a cardinal sin in MMT:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sri-lanka-debt-bond-idUSL3N20U2CH

March 7, 2019.

UPDATE 4-Sri Lanka raises $2.4 bln in dollar bond sale - term sheet

Ouch... now Sri Lanka is committed to regular interest payments on that bond, in US dollars....when only the US Fed can create US dollars out of thin air...

They had the government-induced meltdown BEFORE they begged for foreign loans.

And
"In response to Sri Lanka's financial crisis, China employed its devious 'Debt Trap Diplomacy' to gain a strategic edge over the nation and hold its economy hostage. The port cities of Hambantota and Colombo have been leased to China for 100 years. China is now the second largest lender to Sri Lanka, holding more than 10 per cent of Sri Lanka's outstanding foreign debt in 2019," Red Lantern Analytica said in a statement.

It added that Sri Lanka has fallen apart as a country because of the economic disaster caused by the poor governance, lack of transparency, the Chinese debt trap, and corruption.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/china-used-debt-trap-diplomacy-to-gain-control-over-sri-lanka-think-tank-122071000019_1.html

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #220 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:08pm

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:50pm:

Lack of supply is government-induced (see energy prices).

Or market-induced....see the OPEC oil cartel, and lack of a market gas-reservation scheme in east Oz; (and food and fuel price-rises - erroneously termed "inflation"** related to Western sanctions, in the Ukraine war).

** how the f**k will lifting interest rates overcome supply shortages - other than by killing demand and the economy with it...)

Quote:

Excess money printing is government- made (see insane subsidies over the last 2 years).

The insanity was forcing the government to borrow money "which must be repaid" (as said by loony- tunes Philip Lowe himself), during the pandemic lock-downs.

Admittedly, another error was to throw money into everyone's bank accounts (including Harvey Norman and the like) , regardless of who actually needed it, during the lockdown....

Government should merely have paid the essential bills of locked-down workers (mainly food, utilities and and housing costs) , with UN-BORROWED "printed" money, to avoid the pool of excess purchasing power that became evident after the lifting of the lock-downs.

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« Last Edit: Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:14pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #221 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:08pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:50pm:

Lack of supply is government-induced (see energy prices).

Or market-induced....see the OPEC oil cartel, and lack of a market gas-reservation scheme in east Oz; (and food and fuel price-rises - erroneously termed "inflation"** related to Western sanctions, in the Ukraine war).

** how the f**k will lifting interest rates overcome supply shortages - other than by killing demand and the economy with it...)

Quote:

Excess money printing is government- made (see insane subsidies over the last 2 years).

The insanity was forcing the government to borrow money "which must be repaid" (as said by loony- tunes Philip Lowe himself), during the pandemic lock-downs.

Admittedly, another error was to throw money into everyone's bank accounts (including Harvey Norman and the like) , regardless of who actually needed it, during the lockdown....

Government should merely have paid the essential bills of locked-down workers (mainly food, utilities and and housing costs) , with UN-BORROWED "printed" money, to avoid the pool of excess purchasing power that became evident after the lifting of the lock-downs.

Oh, so printing money is both a bottomless pit - and must be done prudently. A magic pudding but consume with care.

Right-oh....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #222 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:36pm

Frank wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:54pm:

They had the government-induced meltdown BEFORE they begged for foreign loans.

Loss of tourism income (due to covid) isn't government-induced meltdown, though the government did make many mistakes in the decade leading up to the meltdown.

Quote:

And
"In response to Sri Lanka's financial crisis, China employed its devious 'Debt Trap Diplomacy' to gain a strategic edge over the nation and hold its economy hostage. The port cities of Hambantota and Colombo have been leased to China for 100 years. China is now the second largest lender to Sri Lanka, holding more than 10 per cent of Sri Lanka's outstanding foreign debt in 2019," Red Lantern Analytica said in a statement.

It added that Sri Lanka has fallen apart as a country because of the economic disaster caused by the poor governance, lack of transparency, the Chinese debt trap, and corruption.

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/china-used-debt-trap-diplomacy-to-gain-control-over-sri-lanka-think-tank-122071000019_1.html

Ah..the old "China debt diplomacy" theory...trust the US outfit 'business standard' to lie through its teeth.

https://www.dw.com/en/sri-lankas-foreign-debt-default-why-the-island-nation-went...

Sri Lanka Foreign Debt Summary

China 10%,
Japan 10%,
World Bank 9%,
market borrowings 47% (including US-dollar-denominated bonds - a cardinal sin in MMT),
India 2%,
Other 9%.

In other words, disgusting US lies re China "debt trap diplomacy".

And of course the US stooge the IMF (Instant Misery Fund) has NEVER shown any inclination to fund infrastructure development in developing countries in the ME, Africa and South Asia.

Lets see if Biden's various BBBW schemes - a desperate attempt to rival China's BRI - amount to anything at all.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20355 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #223 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 2:24pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 12:23pm: That's because you don't understand inflation is an excess demand (or lack of supply) problem. But money is not a supply problem You have said so yourself governments can simply create money.
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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #224 - Jul 12^th, 2022 at 2:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jul 12^th, 2022 at 1:36pm:

And of course the US stooge the IMF (Instant Misery Fund) has NEVER shown any inclination to fund infrastructure development in developing countries in the ME, Africa and South Asia.

Not quite correct. The IMF won't fund fossil fuel infrastructure but they are all aboard the neocolonialist renewables funding. Roll Eyes

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