Australian Politics Forum - The fallacy of the Greens

lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #165 - Jun 23^rd, 2022 at 4:04pm

And in other news -

Quote:

Electric cars could increase demand on the power grid during the evening peak by at least 30 per cent unless households adopt smart charging, a new trial shows.
Key points:

A trial of 150 electric car users revealed their potential impact on the power grid's evening peak
Demand could rise between 30 and 100 per cent
Work underway to understand what upgrades could be needed to the electricity network

Origin Energy has teamed up with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) to understand ways to change the behaviour of electric car owners before their mass adoption in Australia.

With the threat of blackouts a reality amid higher prices and demand, Origin's general manager of e-mobility Chau Le said the network would struggle once EVs became more popular.

"At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all," she said.
"If we were to add another 30 per cent of peak load to the grid during those periods of high prices and constraints on the network, this would require significant investment to increase capacity."

To manage the looming threat, Origin and ARENA have been trialling "smart charging", with results published yesterday.

Smart chargers, costing between $2,000 and $3,000, were installed in homes of 150 EV users and baseline data was captured.

The chargers allow people to set their charging times, for example when there is more low-cost renewable energy being produced or to support the grid at times of peak demand.

It found that without intervention, 30 per cent of charging was done in the evening peak, between 3pm and 9pm.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/power-prices-grid-electric-car-increase-d...

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #166 - Jun 23^rd, 2022 at 4:27pm

lee wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2022 at 4:04pm:

And in other news -

Quote:

Electric cars could increase demand on the power grid during the evening peak by at least 30 per cent unless households adopt smart charging, a new trial shows.
Key points:

A trial of 150 electric car users revealed their potential impact on the power grid's evening peak
Demand could rise between 30 and 100 per cent
Work underway to understand what upgrades could be needed to the electricity network

Origin Energy has teamed up with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) to understand ways to change the behaviour of electric car owners before their mass adoption in Australia.

With the threat of blackouts a reality amid higher prices and demand, Origin's general manager of e-mobility Chau Le said the network would struggle once EVs became more popular.

"At the moment our electricity grid is not coping at all," she said.
"If we were to add another 30 per cent of peak load to the grid during those periods of high prices and constraints on the network, this would require significant investment to increase capacity."

To manage the looming threat, Origin and ARENA have been trialling "smart charging", with results published yesterday.

Smart chargers, costing between $2,000 and $3,000, were installed in homes of 150 EV users and baseline data was captured.

The chargers allow people to set their charging times, for example when there is more low-cost renewable energy being produced or to support the grid at times of peak demand.

It found that without intervention, 30 per cent of charging was done in the evening peak, between 3pm and 9pm.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-23/power-prices-grid-electric-car-increase-d...

The Gretas, Adams, Flannerys and Teals didn't see that coming. Big surprise. Shocked

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #167 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:18pm

Frank wrote on Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm:

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

In response to our recent power crisis, environmentalists at home have called for a blockage on gas exports, a gas export tax and increased government subsidies for battery storage technologies. Yet these are simply Band-Aid solutions. To ensure energy security, Australia needs to extract more gas, invest in and maintain our existing coal-fired power plants, and think seriously about a long-term transition to nuclear energy. While nuclear energy is often dismissed as being too costly, the question is: compared with what? The battery storage required to power the whole of Australia has been estimated to cost $6.5 trillion. If this is a cost-effective solution, then God help us all.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/energy-crisis-wont-be-solved-bywind-and-sun/news-story/945ffa07c966f84ba4fe79c89852c06f

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #168 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:21pm

Frank wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm:

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

In response to our recent power crisis, environmentalists at home have called for a blockage on gas exports, a gas export tax and increased government subsidies for battery storage technologies. Yet these are simply Band-Aid solutions. To ensure energy security, Australia needs to extract more gas, invest in and maintain our existing coal-fired power plants, and think seriously about a long-term transition to nuclear energy. While nuclear energy is often dismissed as being too costly, the question is: compared with what? The battery storage required to power the whole of Australia has been estimated to cost $6.5 trillion. If this is a cost-effective solution, then God help us all.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/energy-crisis-wont-be-solved-bywind-and-sun/news-story/945ffa07c966f84ba4fe79c89852c06f

I understand you are stupid....

Why would we need batteries to power the entire country? More and more people are buying a battery for their own home, which can be used to power their house.

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Frank

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #169 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:45pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:21pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:18pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 19^th, 2022 at 12:10pm:

https://mobile.twitter.com/suzseddon/status/1538211960738787335

In response to our recent power crisis, environmentalists at home have called for a blockage on gas exports, a gas export tax and increased government subsidies for battery storage technologies. Yet these are simply Band-Aid solutions. To ensure energy security, Australia needs to extract more gas, invest in and maintain our existing coal-fired power plants, and think seriously about a long-term transition to nuclear energy. While nuclear energy is often dismissed as being too costly, the question is: compared with what? The battery storage required to power the whole of Australia has been estimated to cost $6.5 trillion. If this is a cost-effective solution, then God help us all.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/energy-crisis-wont-be-solved-bywind-and-sun/news-story/945ffa07c966f84ba4fe79c89852c06f

Why would we need batteries to power the entire country? More and more people are buying a battery for their own home, which can be used to power their house.

Because wind and solar are intermittent, not continuous nor responsive to fluctuating demand, ignorant, mouthy git.

You have something to say about all the things you don't understand - hence your daily post count. You inject yourself into every thread without displaying the slightest evidence of understanding or thought, regardless of the topic. You always talk a lot but invariably say fck all.

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #170 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:47pm

Frank wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:45pm:

Because wind and solar are intermittent, not continuous nor responsive to fluctuating demand, ignorant, mouthy git.

You have something to say about all the things you don't understand - hence your daily post count. You inject yourself into every thread without displaying the slightest evidence of understanding or thought, regardless of the topic. You always talk a lot but invariably say fck all.

Intermittent does not mean they fail to work for the entire country at once... Solar isn't that intermittent. It's pretty easy to predict when it's there.

As usual, you are useless and have nothing to offer.....

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20287 Gender:	Re: The fallacy of the Greens Reply #171 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:02pm FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 2:47pm: It's pretty easy to predict when it's there. How far in advance is this prediction service?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #172 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm

lee wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 4:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2022 at 2:29pm:

To advance toward collective well-being and security, one must understand political and economic realities. 'Every man for himself'/ dog eat dog/ survival of the fittest' neoliberal markets will only lead to extinction.

As will mass hysteria. Wink

A green economy won't lead to extinction.

Quote:

You need the excess at a time you can use it. You can't store more than is available. Roll Eyes

No, you need the storage at the time you can use it. And sun is always shining on half the globe's surface (apart from cloud). Actually space-based solar collection is another area of research.

Quote:

Will this wind be enough to provide an excess? Roll Eyes

if sufficient global capacity is interconnected, yes.

Quote:

Ah back to MMT and free money. :: Grin

Most likely. It's becoming increasingly evident the market can't engender a smooth and timely transition to renewables.

Quote:

Did you actually comprehend that? Roll Eyes

So they didn't use coal; what carbon did they use? How much CO2 was generated?

I'll let you find the answers to those questions; fact is the steel was produced using green hydrogen (with no emissions), to replace coking coal.

Quote:

and the panels and wind turbines aren't. Roll Eyes

how much over capacity will be needed?

Get back to me in decade's time, the answer will be clearer then. (interestingly nuclear is still providing 9% of US energy ( China will be more than that); not insignificant.

Quote:

Which ones? At what cost? Grin

Opportunity cost is irrelevent, to achieve energy from free sun and wind.

Quote:

Really? I would be impressed by outcomes. Only 37 countries have met their NDC's. . Roll Eyes

Of course most governments are still beholden to fossil companies....

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #173 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

A green economy won't lead to extinction.

It will lead to loss of GDP. Loss of jobs. Possible loss of skill sets.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

No, you need the storage at the time you can use it.

And if you have used it before recharge can occur? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

And sun is always shining on half the globe's surface (apart from cloud).

Now all you have to do is predict clouds. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Actually space-based solar collection is another area of research.

Yeah A long cable to earth. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

if sufficient global capacity is interconnected, yes.

Ah global capacity. Nothing like losses to kill that idea either. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

'll let you find the answers to those questions; fact is the steel was produced using green hydrogen (with no emissions), to replace coking coal.

So you have taken it at face value.

"More importantly, solid coal in the main body of the furnace cannot be replaced with hydrogen. Some alternatives have been developed, involving biomass – a fuel developed from living organisms – blended with coal.

But sourcing biomass sustainably and at scale would be a challenge. And this process would still likely create some fossil-fuel derived emissions. So to ensure the process is “green”, these emissions would have to be captured and stored – a technology which is currently expensive and unproven at scale."

https://theconversation.com/green-steel-is-hailed-as-the-next-big-thing-in-austr...

So CCS. Another failed attempt. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Get back to me in decade's time, the answer will be clearer then.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Opportunity cost is irrelevent, to achieve energy from free sun and wind.

Jeez you are funny. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

Of course most governments are still beholden to fossil companies....

Most countries don't believe in green magic. Wink

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FutureTheLeftWant

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #174 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm

lee wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:27pm:

It will lead to loss of GDP. Loss of jobs. Possible loss of skill sets.

Most countries don't believe in green magic. Wink

I didn't read most of this ignorant sh

i

t. It won't lead to loss of GDP. Cars lead to loss of skill sets (blacksmithing). We didn't need them any more. Green energy could make this country a fortune and create new, sustainable jobs

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #175 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:46pm

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

I didn't read most of this ignorant shi
t.

Because of your ignorance. Grin

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

It won't lead to loss of GDP.

So now you are a world class economist.

"Degrowth: why some economists think abandoning growth is the only way to save the planet – podcast "

https://theconversation.com/degrowth-why-some-economists-think-abandoning-growth...

Does Degrowth sound like increasing GDP

FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

Green energy could make this country a fortune and create new, sustainable jobs

Ah. Could not will. Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #176 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm

lee wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:27pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 3:05pm:

A green economy won't lead to extinction.

It will lead to loss of GDP. Loss of jobs. Possible loss of skill sets.

An economy powered by sunshine and wind (and nuclear if necessary)? Actually, progressive economists prefer well-being indices , not GDP:

https://hbr.org/2019/10/gdp-is-not-a-measure-of-human-well-being#:~:text=Economi...

GDP Is Not a Measure of Human Well-Being
by Amit Kapoor and Bibek Debroy
October 04, 2019

Quote:

And if you have used it before recharge can occur? Roll Eyes

impossible , sun and wind are always happening somewhere on the globe.

Quote:

Now all you have to do is predict clouds. Grin

over half the globe's surface?

Quote:

Yeah A long cable to earth. Wink

Dumb mode again; reflected light ,... oh never mind

"While space-based solar power is an innovative concept, we are not able to fully launch a system into space yet. Launching a space-based solar system is very expensive. In fact, the cost is estimated to be about 100 times too high to compete with current utility costs.23 Mar 2022"

So its a market problem; let's nationalize the thing and send the bill to the World Bank...

Quote:

Ah global capacity. Nothing like losses to kill that idea either. Grin

Sun and wind potential is many times global requirements.
Quote:

So you have taken it at face value.

"More importantly, solid coal in the main body of the furnace cannot be replaced with hydrogen. Some alternatives have been developed, involving biomass – a fuel developed from living organisms – blended with coal.

But sourcing biomass sustainably and at scale would be a challenge. And this process would still likely create some fossil-fuel derived emissions. So to ensure the process is “green”, these emissions would have to be captured and stored – a technology which is currently expensive and unproven at scale."

https://theconversation.com/green-steel-is-hailed-as-the-next-big-thing-in-austr...

(quick google)

"The way in which hydrogen can replace coal is well understood in principle, and the first pilot plants currently being set up will make it possible to further refine the processes. At current price levels, replacing coal with hydrogen would drive up the price of a ton of steel by about one third.

Quote:

So CCS. Another failed attempt. Grin

Obviously green steel is closer to fruition than CCS

Quote:

Jeez you are funny. Grin

opportunity cost...oh, never mind..

Quote:

Most countries don't believe in green magic. Wink

But they will, when they HAVE to (as the effects of AGW become more severe).

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« Last Edit: Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:09pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #177 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 6:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

impossible , sun and wind are always happening somewhere on the globe.

Magical thinking again. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

over half the globe's surface?

Over any amount of surface. Predictions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Dumb mode again; reflected light ,... oh never mind

Reflected light? You mean like sunlight only better? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

So its a market problem; let's nationalize the thing and send the bill to the World Bank.

Nope. but keep trying. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Sun and wind potential is many times global requirements.

And the losses are far more than your fanciful exhortations. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

The way in which hydrogen can replace coal is well understood in principle, and the first pilot plants currently being set up will make it possible to further refine the processes. At current price levels, replacing coal with hydrogen would drive up the price of a ton of steel by about one third.

Nothing there about the carbon which is needed for steel. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

Obviously green steel is closer to fruition than CCS

Green steel relies on carbon. Therefore you will need industrial scale CCS. Something that hasn't been achieved.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

opportunity cost

Yeah. Failed again. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 5:03pm:

But they will, when they HAVE to (as the effects of AGW become more severe).

So tell us more of this Catastrophic AGW. Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #178 - Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm

lee wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 6:06pm:

Reflected light? You mean like sunlight only better? Grin

there are no clouds in space.

Quote:

Nope. but keep trying. Roll Eyes

You mean nationalization is impossible? Plenty of people are clamoring for it, given the energy market's performance in Oz recently....

Quote:

And the losses are far more than your fanciful exhortations. Roll Eyes

btw, Indonesia is competing with the Pilbara to export solar energy to Singapore:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/new-giga-scale-contender-emerges-in-race-to-export-s...

New giga-scale contender emerges in race to export solar to Singapore

Quote:

Nothing there about the carbon which is needed for steel. Roll Eyes

"The goal is to deliver fossil-free steel to the market and demonstrate the technology on an industrial scale as early as 2026," it said in a statement".

Quote:

Green steel relies on carbon. Therefore you will need industrial scale CCS. Something that hasn't been achieved.

Er... plenty of CO2 in the atmosphere, from which carbon can be extracted.

Quote:

Yeah. Failed again. Grin

You didn't say why; if the resources exist, it can be done....for free (apart from 'opportunity costs'.....

Quote:

So tell us more of this Catastrophic AGW. Wink

Don't you watch TV? Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

...AGW or not....

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lee

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Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #179 - Jun 25^th, 2022 at 4:33pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

there are no clouds in space.

No they are in the earth's atmosphere where you want to shone the light. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

You mean nationalization is impossible? Plenty of people are clamoring for it, given the energy market's performance in Oz recently....

Define "plenty". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

btw, Indonesia is competing with the Pilbara to export solar energy to Singapore:

Much closer. Less losses. Maybe feasible.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

"The goal is to deliver fossil-free steel to the market and demonstrate the technology on an industrial scale as early as 2026," it said in a statement".

So nothing there about the carbon source and CO2 emissions. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Er... plenty of CO2 in the atmosphere, from which carbon can be extracted.

Plenty? 440 parts per million is plenty? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

You didn't say why; if the resources exist, it can be done....for free (apart from 'opportunity costs'.....

It may be done it may not be done. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 24^th, 2022 at 10:32pm:

Practically everyone these days is concluding a statement with -...(this negative phenomenom) "is due to climate change".

yes. So many people with no STEM subjects. Grin

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