Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 43
Send Topic Print
The fallacy of the Greens (Read 61266 times)
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20231
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #120 - Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:17pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:21pm:
That reply explains a lot ...the 2 sentences are identical in meaning.



Now I know you can't read properly.  Where is this GLOBAL drought? There isn't global drought. There is, was and probably ever will be drought.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:21pm:
Drought causes conflict, and conflict leads to price rises for energy and food.


A simplistic statement for a simpleton. Drought leads to rising food prices. Conflict is caused by multiple things. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:21pm:
Running out of debating ability?


You were the one quoting "nincompook". Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:21pm:
.by NOT raising interest rates which would make things worse, obviously. Note: Japan's GDP has hardly changed at all, since the 90's property and market  crash.   

And? It is a good thing? A bad thing? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 3:21pm:
I'll go with Kohler and Mitchell before your flat-earth neoliberal economics any time.



Never mind. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Moderator
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 118227
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #121 - Jun 13th, 2022 at 6:43pm
 
Greens policies causing power blackouts now:




Queensland, NSW face potential blackouts

| ABC News


4,789 views  Jun 13, 2022  Queensland is being warned power load shedding is possible tonight, with further cuts possible in New South Wales tomorrow as industry starts up again after the long weekend.
Subscribe: http://ab.co/1svxLVE  Read more here: https://ab.co/3xGetbr
The Australian Energy Market Operator has issued a ‘lack of reserve’ forecast meaning demand is likely to outstrip supply in the two states.
Queenslanders are being urged to conserve electricity or face shedding from 5pm until 11pm. New South Wales from about 8pm.
If demand outstrips what is being generated, load shedding will happen to protect the network.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 15246
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #122 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 4:54pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 6:43pm:
Greens policies causing power blackouts now:




Queensland, NSW face potential blackouts

| ABC News


4,789 views  Jun 13, 2022  Queensland is being warned power load shedding is possible tonight, with further cuts possible in New South Wales tomorrow as industry starts up again after the long weekend.
Subscribe: http://ab.co/1svxLVE  Read more here: https://ab.co/3xGetbr
The Australian Energy Market Operator has issued a ‘lack of reserve’ forecast meaning demand is likely to outstrip supply in the two states.
Queenslanders are being urged to conserve electricity or face shedding from 5pm until 11pm. New South Wales from about 8pm.
If demand outstrips what is being generated, load shedding will happen to protect the network.


No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government.  The Greens haven't directed govt. policy in  that lost decade. 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Moderator
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 118227
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #123 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:00pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 4:54pm:
No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government.  The Greens haven't directed govt. policy in  that lost decade. 



https://7news.com.au/technology/power-outage/entire-sydney-suburbs-plunged-into-...

Entire Sydney suburbs plunged into darkness

as more power outages loom


Entire suburbs in Sydney were sent into darkness on Monday night, with concerns more power outages could hit areas of both New South Wales and Queensland over the next 24 hours.

Homes in Sydney’s north and the Northern Beaches were hit with power outages on Monday night.

Watch more in the video above

Watch the latest News on Channel 7 or stream for free on 7plus >>

Homes in Beacon Hill, Frenchs Forest, Narraweena, Cromer and Dee Why were all temporarily without power, Ausgrid said.

Queenslanders were warned they were at risk of a significant power disruption between 5.30pm to 8pm on Monday, but blackouts were avoided.

Meanwhile, NSW is on high alert from 7pm on Tuesday due to a predicted supply shortfall.

The power outages come as Federal Energy Minister Chris Bowen warns the system is “under pressure” and said households should ‘brace for a bumpy period ahead’.
Suburbs around Sydney suffered power outages on Monday night, as officials warn more blackouts could be on their way.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20231
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #124 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:15pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 4:54pm:
No; lack of investment in renewables, and storage and transmission, over the last decade of a climate denying Coalition government.


The government denied climate? Oh dear. Do you have a link for that? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 15246
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #125 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:16pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 13th, 2022 at 4:17pm:
Now I know you can't read properly.  Where is this GLOBAL drought? There isn't global drought. There is, was and probably ever will be drought.

Drought can cause conflict; and droughts are increasing in severity around the globe.

(quick google)

"Drought—a year with a below-average water supply—is a natural part of the climate cycle, but as Earth's atmosphere continues to warm due to climate change, droughts are becoming more frequent, severe, and pervasive. The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record.27 Sept 2021   

Ditto for the GLOBE....get it ? oh.. never mind..

Quote:
A simplistic statement for a simpleton. Drought leads to rising food prices. Conflict is caused by multiple things. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Certainly simple: drought MAY cause conflict, and may cause increase in food and energy prices.

Quote:
You were the one quoting "nincompook". Wink


after you used it as an ad hominen.....oh dear...


Quote:
And? It is a good thing? A bad thing? Roll Eyes


Japan's economy would have been plunged into a  disastrous depression if the BoJ had not propped up the economy by buying most of the  debt issued by the government to save the financial industry  (when property and share prices collapsed in 1990; recall Tokyo was said to worth more then the entire US in 1989..) 

Quote:
Never mind. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


It's a pity covid didn't force the lock-down of the global economy for long enough to destroy your flat-earth  neoliberal economic orthodoxy (when public debt would have become unrepayable).

Perhaps climate change may yet do the trick, if climate scientists have erred on the downside of global AGW climate risk.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bobby.
Moderator
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 118227
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #126 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:30pm
 
They destroyed Hazelwood power station and
now Victoria could lose power too.


...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazelwood_Power_Station


The Hazelwood Power Station is a decommissioned brown coal-fuelled thermal power station located in the Latrobe Valley of Victoria, Australia. Built between 1964 and 1971, the 1,600-megawatt-capacity power station was made up of eight 200MW units, and supplied up to
25% of Victoria's base load electricity
and more than 5% of Australia's total electricity demand.


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20231
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #127 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:44pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:16pm:
but as Earth's atmosphere continues to warm due to climate change, droughts are becoming more frequent, severe, and pervasive. The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record.27 Sept 2021   

AH NASA

"The past 20 years have been some of the driest conditions in the American west on record. Right now, the western United States—including the part of California home to Schohr’s ranch—is experiencing extreme or exceptional drought that will likely have long-term impacts on the land and the people who depend on it.  "

So something like the 163 year drought? Or not. " 20 years driest" is not the same as 20 years drought. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

According to wiki California has had four droughts since 2000. 2006-2010, 2011-2017, 2018 and 2020-2021. California has had 6 year droughts in the past. Apart from the really long ones.

La Nina brings droughts to California. La Nina is not a symptom of climate change but natural variability.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:16pm:
Certainly simple: drought MAY cause conflict, and may cause increase in food and energy prices.


Yes. But definitely not "WILL". Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:16pm:
after you used it as an ad hominen.....oh dear...


No dear. The "nincompook" starts with you. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:16pm:
Japan's economy would have been plunged into a  disastrous depression if the BoJ had not propped up the economy by buying most of the  debt issued by the government to save the financial industry  (when property and share prices collapsed in 1990; recall Tokyo was said to worth more then the entire US in 1989..)


And post the bailing out of the banks? Do the Japanese want to keep it low or are they forced to keep it low? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:16pm:
Perhaps climate change may yet do the trick, if climate scientists have erred on the downside of global AGW climate risk.


Or perhaps over on the easy coast they can get used to blackouts. The AEMO wants to force diesel and gas fired generators to make power. Even if it costs them more than is economic. Roll Eyes
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:59pm by lee »  
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 15246
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #128 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 6:13pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 5:44pm:
And post the bailing out of the banks? Do the Japanese want to keep it low or are they forced to keep it low? Roll Eyes


Well the Japanese govt. has been trying to avoid DEFLATION  since the 1990 property/share crash.  Hence the low interest rates.

(google)

How did Japan overcome deflation?
In 2001, the Bank of Japan began to target the money supply instead of interest rates, which helped moderate deflation and stimulate economic growth.


Quote:
Or perhaps over on the easy coast they can get used to blackouts. The AEMO wants to force diesel and gas fired generators to make power. Even if it costs them more than is economic. Roll Eyes


The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.

The ALP stared the goons down a decade ago in WA and forced a gas reservation scheme (15%) on the greedy bastards, now WA gas  has barely been affected by the current global crisis in prices. 

But in the East the fossil-loving Feds  gave the same bastards everything they wanted, so that for a while   we confronted the madness of importing Oz gas back from Japan, because local OZ gas in the East was too expensive for Oz consumers.

Just  proves essentials like energy should be nationalized. Greed driven markets don't work with essentials, the market should be largely restricted to discretionary goods and services.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20231
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #129 - Jun 14th, 2022 at 6:19pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 6:13pm:
The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.


So we shouldn't charge uncontracted gas at spot price? How much of east coast gas is uncontracted.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 15246
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #130 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 14th, 2022 at 6:19pm:
[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/128#128 date=1655194388]The whole Oz gas experience has demonstrated the absolute worst of greedy private multinational/national companies seeking maximum gain in market capitalism.


Quote:
So we shouldn't charge uncontracted gas at spot price?


No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.


Neoliberal privatized markets are a failure. Oz has the most energy resources in the world (both renewable and fossils), and yet citizens are told to "put on more clothes" to keep warm, while private companies are deliberately staying out of the market until directed by the government...so that they can claim "compensation" from the government.

That's your seek, evil, mainstream market economics with all its survival of the fittest ("maximizing private profit")  savagery on full display.   

Quote:
How much of east coast gas is uncontracted.


Very little...AND there is no reservation policy (as in WA which consequently is faring much better  in the current global energy crisis.  duh).
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:58pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20231
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #131 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:13pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm:
No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.


To do that you would have to nationalise everything. Roll Eyes Oh yes that's right MMT, the untried, is the answer. Grin Grin Grin Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm:
Very little...AND there is no reservation policy (as in WA which consequently is faring much better  in the current global energy crisis.  duh).


Exactly And Labor is doing so well in Queensland. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 15246
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #132 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:07pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:13pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm:
No. As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy). So your diversion to "spot prices" is a red herring.


To do that you would have to nationalise everything. Roll Eyes Oh yes that's right MMT, the untried, is the answer. Grin Grin Grin Grin


Nonsense. You need to nationalize the things I identified..duh.

Quote:
Exactly And Labor is doing so well in Queensland. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Federal Coalition resisted introduction of the WA reservation scheme when overseas export contracts were signed in the East.
And likely there was (and is) plenty of collusion in the ALP with big gas miners in the Eastern states (who are not so resource rich as WA), to ensure well-paid employment for workers....
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20231
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #133 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:14pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:07pm:
Nonsense. You need to nationalize the things I identified..duh.



You didn't identify you merely made a sweeping statement.thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:53pm:
As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy).



So what exactly do you mean by energy?

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:07pm:
Federal Coalition resisted introduction of the WA reservation scheme when overseas export contracts were signed in the East.


How did they resist when it is solely a state responsibility? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 15246
Gender: male
Re: The fallacy of the Greens
Reply #134 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 4:02pm
 
lee wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:14pm:
You didn't identify you merely made a sweeping statement.[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1653176030/130#130 date=1655261595] As I said, the Oz government should own essential services (like education , healthcare, essential public infrastructure, and energy).


A sweeping statement? I identified 4 (essential) areas of concern; you can have your self-interest-driven "invisible hand"  markets for discretionary goods and services.

Quote:
So what exactly do you mean by energy?

Back into your dumb mode: energy (fossil or renewable sourced).

Quote:
How did they resist when it is solely a state responsibility? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


Overseas contracts involve the Feds, who discouraged the eastern states from a reservation policy -  too "socialist" for Coalition ideologues.

https://www.appea.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/APPEA-submission-Gas-Reserva...

"In the absence of any clearly established need, APPEA recommends the Australian Government
does not seek to impose a prospective national domestic gas reservation scheme"


And the Coalition rolled over...


Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 ... 43
Send Topic Print