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Lessons in AGW (Read 5836 times)
Jovial Monk
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #60 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 1:36pm
 
The burning of fossil fuels and the making of cement are the main sources of atmospheric CO2.

While the oceans have, naturally, warmed their vast mass and high specific heat means the temperature increase is tiny while the partial pressure of CO2 increases by much more so the oceans are net absorbers not emitters of CO2.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #61 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 3:42pm
 
Rosby waves are part of the mechanism of weather and climate.

Quote:
Dishpan Experiments      TOP OF PAGE      


To wrestle with complex systems, for centuries scientists had imagined mechanical models, and some had physically constructed actual models. If you put a fluid in a rotating pan, you might learn something about the circulation of fluids in any rotating system — like the ocean currents or trade winds of the rotating Earth. You might even heat the edge of the pan to mimic the temperature gradient from equator to pole. Various scientists had tried their hand at this from time to time since the turn of the century.(38) The results seemed encouraging to the leading meteorologist Carl-Gustav Rossby, who invited young Athelstan Spilhaus to join him in such an experiment at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in the 1930s. In their pan they produced a miniature current with eddies. If this represented an ocean, the current would have looked like the Gulf Stream; if an atmosphere, like a jet stream (a phenomenon not understood at that time). But they could not make a significant connection with the real world.(39)      
Rossby persevered after he moved to the University of Chicago in 1942 and built up an important school of meteorologists. His group was the pioneer in developing simple mathematical fluid-dynamics models for climate, taking climate as an average of the weather seen in the daily circulation of the atmosphere. They averaged weather charts over periods of 5 to 30 days to extract the general features, and sought to analyze these using basic hydrodynamic principles. The group had to make radical simplifying assumptions, ignoring essential but transient weather effects like the movements of water vapor and the dissipation of wind energy. Still, they began to get a feeling for how large-scale features of the general circulation might arise from simple dynamical principles.(40) In the 1950s, Rossby's students and others moved this work onto computers.      


Meanwhile, to get another peephole into the physics, Rossby encouraged Dave Fultz and others to experiment with rotating mechanical systems. Funding came from the Geophysics Research Directorate of the U.S. Air Force, always keen to get a handle on weather patterns. The Chicago group started with a layer of water trapped between hemispheres (made by sawing down two glass flasks). They were delighted to see flow patterns that strongly resembled the Earth's pattern of trade winds, and even, what was wholly unexpected, miniature cyclonic storms. The group moved on to rotate a simple aluminum dishpan. They heated the dishpan at the outer rim (and later also cooled it in the middle), injecting dye to reveal the flow patterns. The results, as another meteorologist recalled, were "exciting and often mystifying."(41) The crude, physical model showed something rather like the wavering polar fronts that dominate much of the real world's weather.(42)
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lee
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #62 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:27pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 1:36pm:
The burning of fossil fuels and the making of cement are the main sources of atmospheric CO2.



No they are not. Even SKS your go to site disagrees with you.

"But consider what happens when more CO2 is released from outside of the natural carbon cycle – by burning fossil fuels. Although our output of 29 gigatons of CO2 is tiny compared to the 750 gigatons moving through the carbon cycle each year, it adds up because the land and ocean cannot absorb all of the extra CO2"

https://skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natural-emissions.htm

You have trotted this out before, been shot down before; but still you persist with lies.

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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #63 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:29pm
 
lee pretends he has forgotten the carbon cycle. Shows how desperate he is.
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lee
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #64 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:31pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:29pm:
lee pretends he has forgotten the carbon cycle. Shows how desperate he is.



Poor petal. Can't debunk again. Shoots at the messenger; misses. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Have a look at their representation -

...
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #65 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:34pm
 
Even the quote from SS talks of the carbon cycle.

We discussed that before, you thought CO2 was absorbed in the fall  Wink



Desperate lee.   Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Last Edit: Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:39pm by Jovial Monk »  

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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #66 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:40pm
 
Quote:
Meanwhile a group at Cambridge University carried out experiments with water held between two concentric cylinders, one of which they heated, rotating on a turntable. Their original idea had been to mimic the dynamics of the Earth's fluid core in hopes of learning about terrestrial magnetism. But the features that turned up looked more like meteorology. "The similarity between these motions and some of the main features of the general atmospheric circulation is striking," reported the experimenter. The water had something like a little jet stream and a pattern of circulation that vacillated among different states, sometimes interrupted by "intense cyclones."(43) It seemed reminiscent of certain changing wind patterns at middle latitudes that Rossby had earlier observed in the atmosphere and had explained theoretically with a simple two-dimensional mathematical model (the "Rossby waves" seen in the meanderings of the jet stream and elsewhere).      
Following up with his own apparatus, Fultz reported in 1959 the most interesting result of all. His rotating fluid sometimes showed a symmetric circulation regime, resembling the real world's "Hadley" cells that bring the regular mid-latitude westerly winds. But at other times the pattern looked more like a "Rossby" regime with a regular set of wiggles. This pattern was somewhat like the standing waves that form in swift water downstream from a rock (in the real Earth, the Rocky Mountains act as the rock). Perturb the rotating fluid by stirring it with a pencil, and when it settled down again it might have flipped from one regime to the other. It could also flip between a Rossby system with four standing waves and one with five. In short, different configurations were equally stable under the given external conditions.(44) This was realistic, for the circulation of the actual atmosphere shifts among quite different states (the great trade winds in particular come and go with the seasons). Larger shifts in the circulation pattern might represent long-term climate changes.
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #67 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:13pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:34pm:
Even the quote from SS talks of the carbon cycle.



And I didn't deny it.  Roll Eyes

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 4:34pm:
We discussed that before, you thought CO2 was absorbed in the fall


You mean it is absorbed in the rise? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #68 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:20pm
 
It is what you thought back then.

Can you explain the Carbon Cycle in your own words?
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #69 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:23pm
 
Quote:
Ewing and Donn's Unstable Climate      TOP OF PAGE      


The most influential new theory was deployed by two scientists at the Lamont Geological Observatory in New York, Maurice Ewing and William Donn. They had been interested for some time in natural catastrophes such as hurricanes and tsunamis.(47) Provoked by recent observations of a surprisingly abrupt end to the last ice age, they sought a mechanism that could produce rapid change. Also influencing them was recent work in geology — indications that over millions of years the Earth's poles had wandered, just as Wegener had claimed. Probably Ewing and Donn had also heard about speculations by Russian scientists that diverting rivers that flowed into the Arctic Ocean might change the climate of Siberia. In 1956, all these strands came together in a radically new idea.(48*)      

Our current epoch of ice ages, Ewing and Donn argued, had begun when the North Pole wandered into the Arctic Ocean basin. The ocean, cooling but still free of ice, had evaporated moisture and promoted a pattern of severe weather. Heavy snows fell all around the Arctic, building continental ice sheets. That withdrew water from the world's oceans, and the sea level dropped. This blocked the shallow channels through which warm currents flowed into the Arctic Ocean, so the ocean froze over. That meant the continental ice sheets were deprived of storms bringing moisture evaporated from the Arctic Ocean, so the sheets began to dwindle. The seas rose, warm currents spilled back into the Arctic Ocean, and its ice cover melted. And so, in a great tangle of feedbacks, a new cycle began.(49*)      

This theory was especially interesting in view of reports that northern regions had been noticeably warming and ice was retreating. Ewing and Donn suggested that the polar ocean might become ice-free, and launch us into a new ice age, within the next few thousand years — or even the next few hundred years.      

The theory was provocative, to say the least. "You will probably enjoy some criticism," a colleague wrote Ewing, and indeed scientists promptly contested what struck many as a far-fetched scheme. "The ingenuity of this argument cannot be denied," as one textbook author wrote, "but it involves such a bewildering array of assumptions that one scarcely knows where to begin."(50) Talk about a swift onset of glaciation seemed only too likely to reinforce popular misconceptions about apocalyptic catastrophes, and contradicted everything known about the pace of climate change. Critics pointed out specific scientific problems (for example, the straits are in fact deep enough so that the Arctic and Atlantic Oceans would exchange water even in the midst of an ice age). Ewing and Donn worked to patch up the holes in their theory by invoking additional phenomena, and for a while many scientists found the idea intriguing, even partly plausible. But ultimately the scheme won no more credence than most other theories of the ice ages.(51) "Your initial idea was truly a great one," a colleague wrote Ewing years later, "...a beautiful idea which just didn't stand the test of time."(52)      

Ewing and Donn's theory was nevertheless important. Picked up by journalists who warned that ice sheets might advance within the next few hundred years, the theory gave the public for the first time a respectable scientific backing for images of disastrous climate change.(53) The discussions also pushed scientists to inspect data for new kinds of information. For example, the theory stimulated studies to find out whether, as Ewing and Donn claimed, the Arctic Ocean had ever been ice-free during the past hundred thousand years (evidently not). These studies included work on ancient ice that would eventually provide crucial clues about climate change. Above all, the daring Ewing-Donn theory rejuvenated speculation about the ice ages, provoking scientists to think broadly about possible mechanisms for climate change in general. As another oceanographer recalled, Donn would "go around and give lectures that made everybody mad. But in making them angry, they really started getting into it."
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #70 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:57pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:20pm:
It is what you thought back then.


It must have been at the same time you were telling all and sundry the temperature rise in a greenhouse was because of increased CO2 and not because there was no airflow. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #71 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:07pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 5:23pm:
For example, the theory stimulated studies to find out whether, as Ewing and Donn claimed, the Arctic Ocean had ever been ice-free during the past hundred thousand years (evidently not).



And yet the Arctic was sailed in the late 18th Century. Amazing feat when it wasn't ice free. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

And of course there is anecdotal evidence of sailings in 1660.

"At the end of the 17th century the french naval lieutenant La Madeleine was in Portugal, on a mission from his minister, Count Louis de Pontchartrain, to get information on Portuguese navigation and trading in the East. In the course of his mission he heard, from a Havre sailor who lived in Oporto, of an extraordinary voyage from Japan to Portugal effected by a Portuguese with whom the French sailor was personally acquainted. In January 1700 he communicated the information he had got from him to his minister, who had it archived. It was reproduced in a memoir in 1754 by the French Philippe Buache, the distinguished royal geographer of Louis XV.

The French sailor told that on 14 March 1660 the Dutch sailing ship «Padre Eterno» under the Portuguese David Melgueiro was ready to set sail from the Japanese port of Cangoshima. It was loaded with rich oriental goods and carried passengers, Dutch and Spanish and perhaps also Portuguese, since they had already entered the Nipponic empire in the previous century. At that time Europe was in the throes of war, Holland against France, Spain against Portugal, Spain against England, Portugal’s ally, who was fighting for her independence. The Atlantic and the eastern seas were infested by armed warships, to which pirates should be added. If the tried to return by the sole route till then used, via the Cape of Good Hope it was almost certain to be taken, so that Melgueiro decided to risk taking the other route open to him, by the arctic seas surrounding the old continent. He thus sailed up the current which washes the eastern coasts of Japan and goes up as far as the Anian-Bering strait, sailed round the coast of North Siberia, presumably far off shore, since he did not know the area. He reached the latitude of 84º N, passed between Greenland and the Spitzberg archipelago and sailed down Norway, where he sailed to windward of Ireland and thus reached a Dutch port, where he disembarked his passengers and goods. "

This text refers to the writings of Philippe Buache, a French geographer. The original writings of Philippe Buache are in “Considérations Géographique et physiques sur les nouvelles découvertes au Nord de la grande mer“, 1753, and are available here. The interesting references to Melgueiro are available between pages 137 and 139.
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #72 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:15pm
 
“Sailing the Arctic” including winters stuck in the ice is the same as “ice free” is it?   Wink



Poor desperate lee. Notice Desperate lee has skipped out of explaining the Carbon Cycle?  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #73 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:49pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:15pm:
“Sailing the Arctic” including winters stuck in the ice is the same as “ice free” is it?   Wink


Only the 18th century one and that didn't have an ice breaker escort. It did have a 1.5hp motor. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Nothing about the 16th century one stuck in the ice.

And apparently the new meme for "ice free" is if it get to less than 1m Sq Km. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #74 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 6:55pm
 
Still skipping describing the carbon cycle. Pissweak description of the Arctic.

Can you do better lee? I doubt it.
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