Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Send Topic Print
Lessons in AGW (Read 4620 times)
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #45 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:36pm
 
Quote:
Arrhenhius's 1896 paper stimulated an American geologist and bold thinker, Thomas C. Chamberlin, to look into the planet's carbon system more deeply. In 1897 he published "a paper which, I am painfully aware, is very speculative..." The speculations revolved around the great puzzle of the ice ages. Chamberlin later remarked how ice ages were "intimately associated with a long chain of other phenomena to which at first they appeared to have no relationship." He was the first to demonstrate that the only way to understand climate change was to understand almost everything about the planet together — not just the air but the oceans, the volcanoes bringing gases from the deep interior, the chemistry of how minerals gradually disintegrated under weathering, and more.


So gradually other factors are considered. Still the obsession with Ice Ages tho—that is to do with permutations of the earths orbit and inclination. In the absence of man volcanoes add more CO2 to the atmosphere and weathering removes it.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:44pm by Jovial Monk »  

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #46 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:43pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:25pm:
indeed impossibly greater.



Ooh look he added it later. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 8:51pm:
By contrast CO2 lingers in the atmosphere for centuries



But you didn't fix this. Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #47 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:46pm
 
Quote:
Chamberlin seemed only to be adding to the tall pile of speculations about ice ages, but along the way he had pioneered the modeling of global movements of carbon. He made rough calculations of how much carbon was stored up in rocks, oceans, and organic reservoirs such as forests. He went on to point out that compared with these stockpiles, the atmosphere contained only a minor fraction — and most of that CO2 cycled in and out of the atmosphere every few thousand years. It was a delicate balance, he warned. Climate conditions "congenial to life" might be short-lived on geological time scales.Chamberlin quickly added that "This threat of disaster is not, however, a scientific argument..." He was offering the idea more for its value "in awakening interest and neutralizing inherited prejudice," namely, the assumption that the atmosphere is stable.


That assumption covered tomorrow.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #48 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:53pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 9:46pm:
Chamberlin quickly added that "This threat of disaster is not, however, a scientific argument..."



It is to today's AGW'ers Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #49 - Apr 5th, 2021 at 10:27pm
 
Quote:
According to a simple experiment, there was already enough CO2 in the air so that its effect on infrared radiation was "saturated" — meaning that all the radiation that the gas could block was already being absorbed, so that adding more gas could make little difference. Moreover, water vapor also absorbed heat rays, and water was enormously more abundant in the atmosphere than CO2. How could adding CO2 affect radiation in parts of the spectrum that H2O (not to mention the CO2 itself) already entirely blocked?      

These studies with the crude techniques of the early 20th century were inaccurate. Modern measurements show that even in the parts of the infrared spectrum where water vapor and CO2 are effective, only a fraction of the heat radiation emitted from the surface of the Earth is blocked before it escapes into space. And that is beside the point anyway. The greenhouse process works regardless of whether the passage of radiation is saturated in lower layers. As explained above, the energy received at the Earth's surface must eventually work its way back up to the higher layers where radiation does slip out easily (in the language of physics, this is the side "wings" of the absorption spectrum, where the gas only partially blocks radiation). . Adding some greenhouse gas to those high, thin layers must warm the planet no matter what happens lower down.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2021 at 8:42am by Jovial Monk »  

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #50 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 12:58pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 5th, 2021 at 10:27pm:
As explained above, the energy received at the Earth's surface must eventually work its way back up to the higher layers where radiation does slip out easily (in the language of physics, this is the side "wings" of the absorption spectrum, where the gas only partially blocks radiation). . Adding some greenhouse gas to those high, thin layers must warm the planet no matter what happens lower down.


And of course that also happens to incoming radiation. That seems to slip through unnoticed. Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #51 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:01pm
 
You forgotten already?

Radiation from the sun is _____wave radiation

Radiation from the surface is ____wave radiation

(Answer Short or Long)


If the atmosphere absorbs a lot of IR (but little sunlight) we expect the stratosphere to become:

1. Cooler? or

2. Warmer?

The stratosphere is in fact 1. Cooling or 2. Warming. Your answer__________?
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #52 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:36pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 1:01pm:
You forgotten already?


Nope but you have.

"Incoming ultraviolet, visible, and a limited portion of infrared energy (together sometimes called "shortwave radiation") from the Sun drive the Earth's climate system. "

https://science.nasa.gov/ems/13_radiationbudget

BTW - what happened to that "hundreds of years" of CO2 residence time? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #53 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 2:01pm
 
Short wave, OK.

Now answer the quiz, doofus.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #54 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 2:01pm:
Short wave, OK.



I don't need to petal. The earth receives infrared energy from the sun. End of story. Infrared is longwave. Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #55 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:08pm
 
Not in the frequencies where AGW happens—near infrared from the sun, far infrared from the surface. Do try to read a science book some time.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #56 - Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:47pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 7th, 2021 at 3:08pm:
Not in the frequencies where AGW happens—near infrared from the sun, far infrared from the surface. Do try to read a science book some time.



So this AGW component is getting smaller and smaller by the comment.

"The far infrared (FIR) spectral region from 100 to 667 cm-1 (100-15 μm) of the Earth's outgoing longwave radiation (OLR) has never been spectrally observed from space. "


    20th EGU General Assembly, EGU2018, Proceedings from the conference held 4-13 April, 2018 in Vienna, Austria, p.11022

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2018EGUGA..2011022P/abstract

It's there; we know it's there;  we just can't find it. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Of course once (if) they find it they will have nothing to compare it to; but it will be "worse than we thought". Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #57 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 10:39am
 
This is 1901!

Quote:
This had been described correctly already in 1901: "radiation from the earth into space does not go directly from the ground," Nils Ekholm explained, "but on the average from a layer of the atmosphere having a considerable height above sea-level... The greater is the absorbing power of the air for heat rays emitted from the ground, the higher will that layer be. But the higher the layer, the lower is its temperature relatively to the ground; and as the radiation from the layer into space is the less the lower its temperature is, it follows that the ground will be hotter the higher the radiating layer is. . . ."


While most people thought it was obvious from everyday observation that the climate was self-regulating, scientists had not identified the mechanisms of regulation. They had several to choose from.      
Through the first half of the 20th century, one common objection to the idea of a future global warming was that only a little of the CO2 on the planet's surface was in the air. Vastly more was locked up in seawater, in equilibrium with the gas in the atmosphere. The oceans would absorb any excess from the atmosphere, or evaporate gas to fill out any deficiency. This was a main reason for dismissing Arrhenius's speculation about future global warming: the relatively puny byproducts of human industry would no doubt be dissolved in the oceans as fast as they were emitted. (In fact, at the rate industry was producing CO2 around 1900 that was a reasonable guess.) "The sea acts as a vast equalizer," as one scientist wrote, making sure all fluctuations "are ironed out and moderated."(23)      

If the oceans somehow failed to stabilize the system, there was another large reservoir of carbon stored up in organic matter such as forests and peat bogs. That too seemed likely to provide what one scientist called "homeostatic regulation."(24) For if more CO2 entered the atmosphere, it would act as fertilizer to help plants grow more lushly, and this would lock up the excess carbon in soil and other organic reservoirs.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 43612
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #58 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 12:00pm
 
Amazing!

Quote:
An important example of work on the topic was an idea developed by the meteorologist Alfred Wegener in the 1920s. It happened that Wegener loved geology as much as meteorology (he was also dedicated to studies in Greenland, where he disappeared on an expedition in his fiftieth year). In collaboration with another meteorologist, Wladimir Köppen, Wegener worked through the geological evidence of radical climate change. Traces of ancient ice caps were found in rock beds near the equator, and fossils of tropical plants in rocks near the poles. Wegener hoped to resolve the puzzle with his controversial claim that continents drifted about from tropics to Arctic and back. Along the way the two meteorologists worked out a climate change theory.      

They started off from Arrhenius's idea that the key variable, albedo, depended on whether snow melted or persisted through the summer. The great sheets of ice that reflected away sunlight could persist only if they rested on land, not ocean. So the authors figured that the recent epoch of ice ages had begun when the North Pole wandered over Greenland, and ice ages had ceased once it moved on into the Arctic Ocean.
     
Wegener and Köppen went into further detail using a theory that had been hanging around since the 19th century. Croll had suggested that ice ages could be linked with regular cycles in the Earth's orbit, the kind of thing astronomers computed. Over many centuries these shifts caused minor variations in the amount of sunlight that reached a given latitude on the Earth. The variations gave rise to ice ages, Croll argued, whenever enfeebled sunlight allowed excess snow accumulation. In the 1920s a Serbian engineer, Milutin Milankovitch began to develop these astronomical calculations and plugged them into equations that simulated the global climate. His energy budget model was like Arrhenius's, but paid closer attention to how much sunlight was received at each latitude in each season, and what that would mean for ice and snow. Milankovitch found that it was summers with weaker sunlight, in other words colder summers, that counted for keeping the reflective snow in place — not cold winters, as Croll had supposed. Wegener and Köppen took up these ideas, insisting that they were "nearly self-evident, and yet contested by some authors!"(30)
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 16400
Gender: male
Re: Lessons in AGW
Reply #59 - Apr 10th, 2021 at 12:28pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2021 at 10:39am:
This was a main reason for dismissing Arrhenius's speculation about future global warming: the relatively puny byproducts of human industry would no doubt be dissolved in the oceans as fast as they were emitted. (In fact, at the rate industry was producing CO2 around 1900 that was a reasonable guess.) "The sea acts as a vast equalizer," as one scientist wrote, making sure all fluctuations "are ironed out and moderated."(23) 



Very good as far as it goes. It does not say anything about CO2 outgassing. Which is the largest component of CO2 emissions. Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Send Topic Print