Australian Politics Forum - Unions create unemployment

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Unions create unemployment Reply #285 - Nov 7^th, 2021 at 7:37pm The Keystone cops thread... Is unionism even a significant factor regarding unemployment?
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Unions create unemployment Reply #286 - Nov 7^th, 2021 at 7:40pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 7:37pm: The Keystone cops thread... Is unionism even a significant factor regarding unemployment? unionism has been falling for the last twenty plus years yet the unemployment rate has been fairly steady in all that time .... what jobs does FD think unions cost?
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Gnads

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #287 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:26am

I’m convinced FD has bats in his belfry- it’s just him going in circles repeating the same bs ad nauseum.

The prime example of leading a horse to water and trying to force it to drink.

Bottom line is he wants to see a totally deregulated labour market where employers are free to offer pittance wages and employees have no rights.

His microeconomics amount to employers offering micro- wages and wield all power in what they offer and expect for that pittance.

“I’m providing the job you take it or leave it”.

It’s the very reason there are so many employers underpaying staff and failing to pay superannuation co- contributions.

Like him too many have an attitude they’re God because they employ people.

The same attitude that sees them offshore exploiting 3rd world countries labour.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #288 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:11am

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2021 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

FD's claim substantiation almost always amounts to some variation of "because you can't prove it isn't so".

On this issue, I am falling back on: you cannot mount a coherent or rational counter-argument. I have not asked anyone for proof of anything. It seems that getting you to make sense is too much to ask.

My rational counter-argument that you once again ignored:

According to you, the 1983 Accord - a clear case of unions and government colluding to artificially increase wages - should have resulted in increased unemployment. Yet the exact opposite happened:

Quote:

The first Accord secured for all workers a 4.3% pay rise (September 1983), a 4.1% pay rise (April 1984), and a deferred 2.6% pay rise over the initial 3-year period, improvements in family payments and child care, and the introduction of Medicare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prices_and_Incomes_Accord

Unemployment from the time of the accord - until the 1990s recession dropped from over 10% to around 6%

Over to you.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #289 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:43am

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 10:29am:

Quote:

It has been shown to you the reductions in wages has not created any more employment.

No it hasn't. I have seen the claim made, based on the sort of analysis you might expect from a primary school student.

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/sunday-public-holiday-penalty-rate-...

conclusion: 2 years after slashing public holiday penalty rates, workers received no noticeable increase in wages or increased work.

This is not the only analysis of this either. All come to the same general conclusion.

eg:
https://theconversation.com/cutting-penalty-rates-was-supposed-to-create-jobs-it...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #290 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:50am

Just out of interest, for all his trolling about no one coming up with a 'counter argument' to his claim that unions create unemployment - has FD, in 20 pages of ranting and raving actually come up with an any sort of actual argument to counter? And by 'argument' I mean something a bit more than a neo-liberal bumper sticker meme, with actual evidence.

Serious question. I concede I may have missed it - in amongst all the inane trolling.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Gnads

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #291 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:50am:

Just out of interest, for all his trolling about no one coming up with a 'counter argument' to his claim that unions create unemployment - has FD, in 20 pages of ranting and raving actually come up with an any sort of actual argument to counter? And by 'argument' I mean something a bit more than a neo-liberal bumper sticker meme, with actual evidence.

Serious question. I concede I may have missed it - in amongst all the inane trolling.

Short answer - NO

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John Smith

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #292 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:50am:

Just out of interest, for all his trolling about no one coming up with a 'counter argument' to his claim that unions create unemployment - has FD, in 20 pages of ranting and raving actually come up with an any sort of actual argument to counter? And by 'argument' I mean something a bit more than a neo-liberal bumper sticker meme, with actual evidence.

Serious question. I concede I may have missed it - in amongst all the inane trolling.

NO

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53050 At my desk.	Re: Unions create unemployment Reply #293 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:48pm Quote: Is unionism even a significant factor regarding unemployment? Only to the extent they can still make a difference to the cost of employing people.
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freediver

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #294 - Nov 17^th, 2021 at 6:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:11am:

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2021 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

FD's claim substantiation almost always amounts to some variation of "because you can't prove it isn't so".

On this issue, I am falling back on: you cannot mount a coherent or rational counter-argument. I have not asked anyone for proof of anything. It seems that getting you to make sense is too much to ask.

My rational counter-argument that you once again ignored:

According to you, the 1983 Accord - a clear case of unions and government colluding to artificially increase wages - should have resulted in increased unemployment. Yet the exact opposite happened

How do you know the opposite happened?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #295 - Nov 18^th, 2021 at 8:08am

Sounds like a terrific argument for getting rid of enterprise agreements and returning to a reliable Award system.... so much confusion in the poor widdle manager's heads nowadays - they just can't cope so they substitute bluster for ability...

Imagine giving an idiot straight off the streets the power to affect people's lives and livelihoods... who would do that? Half of them can't read, the other half can't add - how can they run a business?

Why do manager always work in threes? One to read, one to write, the other to keep an eye on two socialist radicals who might make a fair deal with the workforce...

Told yez the reality of running a vehicle commercially and what it can actually cost. Think on it...

Get yourself a new Ford Transit, bottom of the range... $52k... depreciate over four years... keep it running smick, fully insured for all eventualities, registered commercially, and pay for the fuel.

You need more than $25 an hour to keep 'er running......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Big Donger

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #296 - Nov 18^th, 2021 at 9:02pm

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 7:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 7:25pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 7:17pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 3:16pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 9:56am:

I am waiting for an answer that makes sense. So far all you have given me is meaningless gibberish.

Do you think the unions share your level of understanding of economics?

ohh i know FD ... no one can match your genius as far as understanding economics goes. What else can explain your years of being unable to support your claim Grin

Newsflash for you FD .... you need to do a little more than tell us how great your understanding is and how flawed everyone else's is if you wish to be taken seriously.

Do you think the unions share your level of understanding of economics? Would they also deny that the price of employing people influences the number of jobs on offer? Or would they tapdance?

does what I think about unions determine whether or not you prove your claim? Or do you plan on pretending that you saying it's so makes it so indefinitely?

It is possible that if you could manage to make sense, then there would be someone who disagrees with me on this who makes sense. It would be a good start, don't you think?

Do you think the unions share your level of understanding of economics? Would they also deny that the price of employing people influences the number of jobs on offer? Or would they tapdance like you?

And a supplementary, JS:

What sound does a jellyfish make?

You never did answer that one. You got a year for that.

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Big Donger

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #297 - Nov 18^th, 2021 at 9:06pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:11am:

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2021 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

FD's claim substantiation almost always amounts to some variation of "because you can't prove it isn't so".

On this issue, I am falling back on: you cannot mount a coherent or rational counter-argument. I have not asked anyone for proof of anything. It seems that getting you to make sense is too much to ask.

My rational counter-argument that you once again ignored:

According to you, the 1983 Accord - a clear case of unions and government colluding to artificially increase wages - should have resulted in increased unemployment. Yet the exact opposite happened:

Quote:

The first Accord secured for all workers a 4.3% pay rise (September 1983), a 4.1% pay rise (April 1984), and a deferred 2.6% pay rise over the initial 3-year period, improvements in family payments and child care, and the introduction of Medicare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prices_and_Incomes_Accord

Unemployment from the time of the accord - until the 1990s recession dropped from over 10% to around 6%

Over to you.

Yes, G, but you evaded the question. Do you support the execution of gays who do it Mardi Gras-style?

Why won't you say?

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Big Donger

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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #298 - Nov 18^th, 2021 at 9:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:50am:

Just out of interest, for all his trolling about no one coming up with a 'counter argument' to his claim that unions create unemployment - has FD, in 20 pages of ranting and raving actually come up with an any sort of actual argument to counter? And by 'argument' I mean something a bit more than a neo-liberal bumper sticker meme, with actual evidence.

Serious question. I concede I may have missed it - in amongst all the inane trolling.

That's unfair, G. You're deliberately ignoring FD's arguments in other threads.

How about Iraq is the next South Korea? You haven't acknowledged that one yet. Now why is that?

Not wacist, are you?

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58263 Gender:	Re: Unions create unemployment Reply #299 - Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 10:33am No one unemployed in Australia has any excuse to stay that way, given the current desperation of businesses to hire people: skilled and unskilled jobs. If Morrison announced ending the dole in February the only ones affected would be the absolute no-hoper bludgers. Mark Latham
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