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Unions create unemployment (Read 3511 times)
freediver
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Unions create unemployment
Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:17pm
 
Perhaps the clearest example of the self defeating nature of unions and the bloody minded self delusion that unionism is built on is the fact that unions increase unemployment, and the vapid arguments which unionists will use in an attempt to counter this.

Unfortunately for the unionists, the job market is not magically exempt from the effects of supply and demand. If you artificially increase wages, either through government or union action, the inevitable result is fewer jobs than there would have been if market forces had been left to run their course. This is why neither the government nor the unions are able to wave a magic wand and double everyone's salary, either in real terms or on paper - it would put people out of a job. Yet unions devote their existence to doing exactly this on a smaller scale - colluding to increase wages by a smaller amount, and inevitably destroying some people's jobs in the process. Then congratulating themselves for being knights in shining armour while attacking honest job seekers as being scabs.

In the scab thread, the resident unionists were happy enough to argue that their fellow Australians should voluntarily choose unemployment in order to maintain whatever modest salary increase the unions could achieve through collusion, and happily attacked those Australians who had the nerve to believe they should be free to choose to work for whoever would freely choose to employ them.

Yet in the same thread they managed to delude themselves into thinking that their actions do not put people out of work. This was not just coming from one or two rusted on supporters, but a significant minority.

For example, a blatant lie by John Smith and Dna:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 6:47pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 6:39pm:
Quote:
That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed.


Do you think there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts?


Yes definitely the loss of jobs was industry specific. People walked and it hurt the industry.

The data shows that employees voted with their feet.


This next lie is particularly stupid. Who but a unionist would believe that  a company only ever needs a fixed amount of employees, regardless of the cost of them or how profitable they are?

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 8:35pm:
There is a mountain of evidence that shows wage increases do not impact employment numbers, the employer side make the claim with every wage increase and when it happens the outcome fails to support this claim.

The reason is that business will employ the number of people that they need. They do not employ people they don't need when wages are low and they do not sack people that they do need when wages increase.


Jest accusing Friedman of lying and backing it up by agreeing with him:

Jest wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 6:17am:
It was Friedman's biggest lie; that tax cuts and business profitability leads to more jobs and higher wages. Business profitability can lead to more jobs but the effect is very minimal.


The quintessential unionist - being confused is no barrier to the absolute conviction that you are right:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 10:28pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 20th, 2020 at 8:03pm:
You are confused.



Yes confused but I am still right.


When John Smith finally produced the evidence everyone had been talking about, it was immediately apparent why they had been reluctant to do so for so long. From the article John presented:

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/penalty-rate-cuts-did-not-create-jobs-labor-20200522-p54vn7.html

Ms Birch cautioned against assuming causality between the penalty rate changes and the jobs data.

Ms Mousina said the retail sector had seen disappointing jobs growth in both part-time and full-time roles but this was shaped in part by the broader struggles of the retail sector and the structural decline in department stores.

“Before COVID the consumer backdrop was already weak in Australia – low wages growth, high household debt and poor confidence, which doesn’t bode well for the retail sector,” she said.


There was nothing in the evidence to back up Dna's claim that job numbers went down because people were voluntarily resigning, or his even more absurd claim that businesses do not grow or shrink, or John's claim that the rate cuts did not create a single job, or that there were fewer jobs than their would have been without the rate cuts.

All it demonstrates is the misleading, transparent and simple minded propaganda that unions are built on - in this case trying to attribute a retail sector shrinking as a result of competition with online sellers and a struggling economy to a single cause that does not even make sense - cheaper labour.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm
 
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:43pm
 
Penalty Rates were good when most of the country was British White.
But Britain doesn't want to pay for Moslems and Chinese.
They'll remove all titles and connections to Australia - like removing the Union Jack from the flag.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #3 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 3:30pm
 
...
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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
 
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #4 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 3:31pm
 
John Smith wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm:
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job


Oh dear how many times has FD tried to repackage this BS; 4 or 5 times now? 

I suppose he figures that when all else fails this is how he can force everyone to agree with him. 

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JaSin.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #5 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 3:33pm
 
Jest wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 3:31pm:
John Smith wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm:
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job


Oh dear how many times has FD tried to repackage this BS; 4 or 5 times now? 

I suppose he figures that when all else fails this is how he can force everyone to agree with him. 



No that's Monk when he gets cornered on another lie. Grin
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #6 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 4:06pm
 
John Smith wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm:
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job


Evidence for this? How can you say it didn't provide a single job did every business owner get surveyed?

Cutting penalty rates  saved a lot of these people from becoming unemployed.

Nobel prize winning economist on minimum wages creating higher unemployment perhaps you lefties should listen and learn.




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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #7 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 4:18pm
 
John Smith wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm:
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job


That only demonstrates your lack of comprehension of what the facts actually are John.

Quote:
Nobel prize winning economist on minimum wages creating higher unemployment perhaps you lefties should listen and learn.


Pretty much every economist in existence. I have said from the outset that not a single economist disagrees with this. Gandalf is the only one to even attempt to find an economist who disagrees. He failed.

The unions should get a nobel prize in self defeating delusions.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #8 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 11:13pm
 
...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #9 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 11:25pm
 
You should pay more attention to your own signature grapps:

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #10 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 11:44pm
 
Till now I have ignored this topic based on the topic creators clear unreasonable anti union obsession.

I just clicked on the topic first time to see my words misrepresented. Clearly correct statements labelled as lies.

Penalty rates were reduced in several industries - employment levels in those specific industries dropped. Other industries employment levels continued with the trend prior to the penalty rate drop. This is fact.
Irrespective of the authors dogmatic theories and opinions what actually happened was the opposite to the right wing theory as believed by some.

I say this because the theory in this case is poorly implemented as there is no way to create a business case to justify the claims, the numbers do not work.

Quote:
Who but a unionist would believe that  a company only ever needs a fixed amount of employees


Nobody ever said or inferred this. Obviously the numbers vary. The statement that employers do not employ people they don't need or sack people that they do need has nothing to do with a fixed amount of employees but applies to a snapshot situation. Obviously numbers change as the business changes.

Two of my statements were labelled as lies but they were both 100% correct. Both were spun into something different from what I had said in order to make that argument.

The lead argument on the topic is built on a faulty foundation.
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #11 - Oct 31st, 2020 at 11:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 4:18pm:
John Smith wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm:
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job


That only demonstrates your lack of comprehension of what the facts actually are John.

Quote:
Nobel prize winning economist on minimum wages creating higher unemployment perhaps you lefties should listen and learn.


Pretty much every economist in existence. I have said from the outset that not a single economist disagrees with this. Gandalf is the only one to even attempt to find an economist who disagrees. He failed.

The unions should get a nobel prize in self defeating delusions.



Comment 1: No he is correct. Jobs in these industries went down in this period. That is fact.

Comment 2: An increase to the Australian minimum wage has never seen unemployment increase.

You hear these economist statements trotted out by the righties year after year, Oh if you increase the minimum wage unemployment will increase is the argument in the industrial courts. The minimum wage goes up in some years. The expected theoretical increase to unemployment has never followed. Decade after decade - never. I get the theory I really do But !!!
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freediver
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #12 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 7:57am
 
You lied Dna. Being more careful with your union-inspired deception now doesn't change this. Here are two lies you told - that there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts, and that the job losses were a result of people "voting with their feet".

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 6:47pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 6:39pm:
Quote:
That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed.


Do you think there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts?


Yes definitely the loss of jobs was industry specific. People walked and it hurt the industry.

The data shows that employees voted with their feet.


Here is another lie. I am not sure what idiotic logic you use to justify it, but it is still a lie.

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17th, 2020 at 8:35pm:
There is a mountain of evidence that shows wage increases do not impact employment numbers, the employer side make the claim with every wage increase and when it happens the outcome fails to support this claim.

The reason is that business will employ the number of people that they need. They do not employ people they don't need when wages are low and they do not sack people that they do need when wages increase.


Dnarever wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 11:44pm:
Quote:
Who but a unionist would believe that  a company only ever needs a fixed amount of employees


Nobody ever said or inferred this. Obviously the numbers vary. The statement that employers do not employ people they don't need or sack people that they do need has nothing to do with a fixed amount of employees but applies to a snapshot situation. Obviously numbers change as the business changes.


Yes, they will change as the business becomes more or less profitable, for example due to changes in award rates.

Quote:
Two of my statements were labelled as lies but they were both 100% correct.


You lied. Now you are pretending you said something else. Let's make it three of your statements, and you are now following it up with more lies.

Quote:
The lead argument on the topic is built on a faulty foundation.


It is built on the most fundamental and universally accepted principle in economics. You should not even need any formal education in economics to understand it. Yet the unions promote ignorance and self delusion in order to reject this principle.

Quote:
Comment 1: No he is correct. Jobs in these industries went down in this period. That is fact.


You are lying on behalf of the unions. Again. You are changing what was said. Why are you so fond of the unions if they need you to lie constantly on their behalf?

Quote:
Comment 2: An increase to the Australian minimum wage has never seen unemployment increase.


Another lie.

Quote:
You hear these economist statements trotted out by the righties year after year


Having half a brain does not make you right wing. Understanding economics does not make you right wing. You delude yourself again if you think half the population rejects these economic principles with you because they are on the left.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #13 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:11am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 4:06pm:
John Smith wrote on Oct 31st, 2020 at 2:36pm:
so after all that cherry picking by fd, the facts remained that the evidence shows that  cutting penalty rates failed to provide a single solitary job


Evidence for this? How can you say it didn't provide a single job did every business owner get surveyed?

Cutting penalty rates  saved a lot of these people from becoming unemployed




One doesn't need to interview every single business owner. What you need to do is prove the cuts helped create jobs. None of the evidence shows this.

Quote:
So did those jobs ever materialise? Nope.

"There was no significant increase in jobs outcomes before the penalty rate cuts compared to after the penalty rates cut," Dr Martin O'Brien from the University of Wollongong told Hack.

Dr O'Brien and a colleague from Macquarie University decided to test the claim by employers that penalty rate cuts would create jobs.

They looked at jobs figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) one year after the cuts came into place, and then again the following year. They found no noticeable difference in either case.

They also decided to test if there existing employees were getting more Sunday shifts.

There had been no increase to the proportion of people working Sundays or public holidays.

"For those already working Sundays or public holidays, [there was] no increase in their hours on those particular days. There were no increase in average hours worked [altogether]," Dr O'Brien said.

But jobs figures alone don't tell the whole story, so Dr O'Brien decided to just ask employers if they were hiring more workers.

"We found consistent results from owner-managers from within the retail and hospitality that there was no discernible increase in outcomes," he said.


https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/sunday-public-holiday-penalty-rate-...

The University of Wollongong looked at the number of employees, they looked at the number of hours existing employees worked and they even asked employers if they were hiring more workers.. In EVERY instance, the facts show cutting penalty rates did not create extra jobs, or even extra hours for those already in the jobs.


FD is being conned.
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John Smith
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Re: Unions create unemployment
Reply #14 - Nov 1st, 2020 at 8:12am
 
FD is like the village idiot who stamps his feet and cries that every one else is lying
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