Australian Politics Forum - 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran

Karnal

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #45 - May 24^th, 2019 at 8:42am

Karnal wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 9:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 7:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2019 at 2:33pm:

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2019 at 9:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 21^st, 2019 at 2:14pm:

moses wrote on May 18^th, 2019 at 2:40pm:

Now gandi makes much of a single verse in the qur'an 2:256 which says there is no compulsion in religion.

O.K. gandi if it comes down to only the verses which actually use the words matter, do tell us: how many verses actually say there is no compulsion in religion?

Is there only one?

No there is not only one. I reference 18:29 all the time.

But thats not the point. You are disingenuously verbling me as saying that instead of being full of rape and torture, the Quran is really full of saying no compulsion in religion.

I am not.

The Quran is chock full of imagery and metaphors related to finding spiritual peace and harmony in belief (which itself is really just a metaphor for freeing oneself from base and earthly desires). If nothing else just read chapter 2 - the longest surah in the Quran and tell me roughly how much is 'rape and torture' and how much is a personal conversation with the individual to have and maintain faith. Read Al Fatiha at the very least - the first and by far the most important verse - as muslims say it before every prostration (ruka'a) in their prayer - 17 times a day, and countless other times as the 'go to' verse to recite for just about any occassion - weddings, funerals, or just when you're feeling anxious. What does Al Fatiha say? It is in two parts - the first part is to acknowledge/remind ourselves that God is a) the most merciful b) the sustainer of all life and c) the master of judgement. The second half is to ask God to guide us and keep us on the righteous path (the "right path" defined elsewhere in the Quran as the path of peace). Thats it. No murder rape or pillage - just remembering God as the master over all things and seeking his guidance to stay on the right path.

In fact Al Fatiha is just a microcosm of what the overall theme in the Quran is about. And this is the theme muslims recite the most - the most important verse. And the theme is further encapsulated by the 5 pillars - belief/faith in God, prayer, alms giving, pilgrimage and fasting - every one of them is a form of spiritual cleansing for the individual, to grow their spiritual side (Iman)

Should he read chapter 9? Or should he only read the bits you tell him to if he wants a true indication of the amount of slaughter bits in the Quran?

Ideally all of it FD, and he'll find that chapter 9 is quite the anomaly in an otherwise meditative and deeply spiritual book.

If there's one verse that encapsulates the entire Quran, and Islam for that matter, its the very first, and by the far the most well known and common verse. We recite it more than any other verse. Literally a bare minimum of 17 times a day. It has nothing to do with fighting others. Nor do the 5 pillars - universally understood as the core essences of Islam.

Guess what FD? Chapter 9 is not recited by muslims 17 times a day. Chapter 9 has no bearing whatsoever on the 5 pillars.

And chapter 8?

Are you conceding your 1.7% calculation was bogus?

Let's ask FD.

Quote:

Your creed allows you and positively encourages you to be dishonest and to lie and so you are dishonest and do lie.

FD, do you uphold the use of porkies in your campaign against the Muselman?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

FD?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #46 - May 24^th, 2019 at 9:32am

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:54am:

The vast majority of the Quran is not about the things you claim are the core message of Islam.

I promise you it is. And as someone who's actually read it, I think I have the authority to say that. You can call that a muslim "owning what they say about Islam" if you like.

You don't get to dictate what the "vast majority" of the Quran is or isn't because you've never read it.

Well, you could, but you'd come across as a fool

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #47 - May 24^th, 2019 at 11:53am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 9:32am:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:54am:

The vast majority of the Quran is not about the things you claim are the core message of Islam.

I promise you it is. And as someone who's actually read it, I think I have the authority to say that. You can call that a muslim "owning what they say about Islam" if you like.

You don't get to dictate what the "vast majority" of the Quran is or isn't because you've never read it.

This just goes to show why Islam is such an inferior culture and why Whitey's is so superior, G.

Whitey, you see, has Freeeeedom. You Muslims have your Quran. FD's in a far better position to define the Quran.

FD, you see, hasn't read it. That's the difference between you people and us, G: we uphold FD's right to say what he wants. If you don't believe him, you don't support Freeeedom.

Scientific, innit.

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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 36263 Gender:	Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran Reply #48 - May 24^th, 2019 at 1:10pm hey K, attempt 6. "do you think there has ever been a suicide bomber who thought he was going to paradise ?"
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98492	Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran Reply #49 - May 24^th, 2019 at 2:32pm aquascoot wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 1:10pm: hey K, attempt 6. "do you think there has ever been a suicide bomber who thought he was going to paradise ?" I do, dear. And quite a few who didn't too. Kamakazes, Tamil Tigers, various cult members. You?
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aquascoot

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #50 - May 24^th, 2019 at 2:38pm

Karnal wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 2:32pm:

aquascoot wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 1:10pm:

hey K,

attempt 6.

"do you think there has ever been a suicide bomber who thought he was going to paradise ?"

I do, dear. And quite a few who didn't too.

Kamakazes, Tamil Tigers, various cult members.

You?

kamikazes...thats not a very widespread religion nowadays.
i doubt we have much to fear from pilots with JAL.

does the bible or the tora or the pali cannon promise paradise to suicidal martyrs ?

if such promises are made in the koran but not the other religious texts, should this just be ignored ?.

but thanks for answering.
less cowardly then gweg, mothra, bwian and gandolph

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freediver

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #51 - May 25^th, 2019 at 8:32am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 9:32am:

freediver wrote on May 24^th, 2019 at 5:54am:

The vast majority of the Quran is not about the things you claim are the core message of Islam.

I promise you it is. And as someone who's actually read it, I think I have the authority to say that. You can call that a muslim "owning what they say about Islam" if you like.

You don't get to dictate what the "vast majority" of the Quran is or isn't because you've never read it.

Well, you could, but you'd come across as a fool

Are you going to try to back that up?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #52 - May 28^th, 2019 at 1:14pm

you first FD:

Quote:

The vast majority of the Quran is not about the things you claim are the core message of Islam.

Which will be interesting to see you try.

How exactly does one back up their claim of what a book they have never read is about?

As for my method of backing my claim up. It would go along the lines of "read it yourself and say it aint so".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #53 - May 28^th, 2019 at 2:16pm

Hatred for the sake of Allah and love for the sake of Allah is called Al Walaa wa al Baraa, a fundamental principle of Islamic ethics and Sharia. A Muslim is to hate what Allah hates and love what Allah loves. Allah hates the Kafir, therefore, a Muslim is to act accordingly.

Amount of Text Devoted to the Kafir

The Koran says that the Kafir may be deceived, plotted against, hated, enslaved, mocked, tortured and worse. The word is usually translated as “unbeliever” but this translation is wrong. The word “unbeliever” is logically and emotionally neutral, whereas, Kafir is the most abusive, prejudiced and hateful word in any language.

Islam devotes a great amount of energy to the Kafir. The majority (64%) of the Koran is devoted to the Kafir, and nearly all of the Sira (81%) deals with Mohammed’s struggle with them. The Hadith (Traditions) devotes 32% of the text to Kafirs1. Overall, the Trilogy devotes 60% of its content to the Kafir.

Hadith 37%
Sira 81%
Koran 64%
Total 60%

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freediver

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #54 - May 28^th, 2019 at 5:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 28^th, 2019 at 1:14pm:

you first FD:

Quote:

The vast majority of the Quran is not about the things you claim are the core message of Islam.

Which will be interesting to see you try.

How exactly does one back up their claim of what a book they have never read is about?

As for my method of backing my claim up. It would go along the lines of "read it yourself and say it aint so".

Because if it were true, you would have used the same analysis you used in the OP to prove what the Quran is really about. But it does not work both ways, does it Gandalf? It's the ever-shifting goal posts of the meaning of Islam.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #55 - May 29^th, 2019 at 8:59am

No it doesn't work both ways FD.

Its pretty easy to count the number of times the Quran gives permission for fighting - thats a clear cut thing.

On the other hand it is not easy to count the number of times the Quran councils for introspection and spiritual development - its a rather more opaque thing. If you attempted such an endeavor, you would end up having to quote almost the entire book.

Your predictable counter that calling for violence is also similarly opaque frankly doesn't pass the pub test.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50673 At my desk.	Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran Reply #56 - May 29^th, 2019 at 9:37am Quote: Your predictable counter that calling for violence is also similarly opaque frankly doesn't pass the pub test. Your attempt in the OP to measure it is obviously bogus.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran
Reply #57 - May 29^th, 2019 at 11:54am

It is not bogus at all.

Verses that mention violence and war are verses that mention violence and war. And it is very easy to quantify them.

What is bogus, is the contention that while only a tiny number of verses mention violence and war specifically, most of the rest is related - in just not so many words.

What is bogus is to infer that the Quran is no different to a war book - because war books won't specifically mention the word "war" very often either.

What is most bogus, is for someone who has never bothered to read a book, to claim what that book is and isn't predominantly about.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50673 At my desk.	Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran Reply #58 - May 29^th, 2019 at 1:43pm Suppose you picked up a book about war. One that is entirely about war. What percentage of the sentences would you expect to mention war?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: 'rape torture and slaughter bits' in the Quran Reply #59 - May 29^th, 2019 at 6:01pm Almost none. Congratulations for making no point at all.
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