Australian Politics Forum - A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution

polite_gandalf

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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #15 - Feb 19^th, 2019 at 10:10am

freediver wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 10:11pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 7:46pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 6:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 1:34pm:

What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.

Would you say you are proposing an alternative constitution?

No. And I can't even begin to understand why you would think so.

So they can achieve what you suggest within the current Iraqi constitution?

Perhaps you should just explain what you meant rather than expecting people to guess.

Sorry if I wasn't clear FD, but I was describing events that happened in the immediate aftermath of the invasion - in 2003. There was no constitution then.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #16 - Feb 19^th, 2019 at 12:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 19^th, 2019 at 10:10am:

freediver wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 10:11pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 7:46pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 6:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15^th, 2019 at 1:34pm:

What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.

Would you say you are proposing an alternative constitution?

No. And I can't even begin to understand why you would think so.

So they can achieve what you suggest within the current Iraqi constitution?

Perhaps you should just explain what you meant rather than expecting people to guess.

Sorry if I wasn't clear FD, but I was describing events that happened in the immediate aftermath of the invasion - in 2003. There was no constitution then.

Is your only complaint that these people got in first?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution Reply #17 - Feb 19^th, 2019 at 12:59pm My complaint was that the first thing the US occupation forces did was to shut down any local attempts at setting up democracy.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51839 At my desk.	Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution Reply #18 - Feb 19^th, 2019 at 9:41pm Duh. What do you think would have come from every interest group in Iraq setting up their own government?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution Reply #19 - Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before.
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FD Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 99973	Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution Reply #20 - Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:24pm freediver wrote on Feb 19^th, 2019 at 9:41pm: Duh. What do you think would have come from every interest group in Iraq setting up their own government? Freeeeeedom?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51839 At my desk.	Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution Reply #21 - Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:25pm polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm: They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before. You do realise you cannot have multiple competing "democratically elected" governments all claiming to rule the same country, right Gandalf?
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FD

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #22 - Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:33pm

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before.

You do realise you cannot have multiple competing "democratically elected" governments all claiming to rule the same country, right Gandalf?

Good point, FD. You just need one that's run by Uncle.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #23 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 11:08am

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before.

You do realise you cannot have multiple competing "democratically elected" governments all claiming to rule the same country, right Gandalf?

They are local governments FD. I believe they exist in most countries in the world.

And the US wasn't stopping the existence of these types of government, they just didn't want the Iraqis to choose the members. Instead they hand picked them - as explained in the article.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #24 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 2:46pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 11:08am:

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before.

You do realise you cannot have multiple competing "democratically elected" governments all claiming to rule the same country, right Gandalf?

They are local governments FD. I believe they exist in most countries in the world.

And the US wasn't stopping the existence of these types of government, they just didn't want the Iraqis to choose the members. Instead they hand picked them - as explained in the article.

Your suggestion was for the establishment of a federal government.

If you invade a country, overthrow the government, and set up a new one, you are by definition stopping the existence of every other form of government. There can only be one, unless you are a fan of failed states.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #25 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 3:40pm

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 2:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 11:08am:

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before.

You do realise you cannot have multiple competing "democratically elected" governments all claiming to rule the same country, right Gandalf?

They are local governments FD. I believe they exist in most countries in the world.

And the US wasn't stopping the existence of these types of government, they just didn't want the Iraqis to choose the members. Instead they hand picked them - as explained in the article.

Your suggestion was for the establishment of a federal government.

If you invade a country, overthrow the government, and set up a new one, you are by definition stopping the existence of every other form of government. There can only be one, unless you are a fan of failed states.

Again, clearly explained in the article:

Quote:

Occupation authorities initially envisioned the creation of local assemblies, composed of several hundred delegates who would represent a city or town's tribes, clergy, middle class, women and ethnic groups. Those delegates would select a mayor and city council.

My understanding is that these local delegates were to be the representatives in a federal government. In any case this was the US's idea - to create representative local councils.

So the Iraqis started doing this - democratically - until the US finally caught on to the fact that this was actual democracy, and therefore unacceptable. So they put a stop to it.

Of course you can argue, as Bremer did in the article, that there are sound reasons to subvert democracy in this case (in the chaos of post-invasion the extremists are best placed to organise in a democracy), but the fact remains that it was subverted.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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FD

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #26 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 3:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 3:40pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 2:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 11:08am:

freediver wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 9:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 20^th, 2019 at 5:11pm:

They were not attempting to set up their own autonomous fiefdoms FD. Read the 2003 article I linked before.

You do realise you cannot have multiple competing "democratically elected" governments all claiming to rule the same country, right Gandalf?

They are local governments FD. I believe they exist in most countries in the world.

And the US wasn't stopping the existence of these types of government, they just didn't want the Iraqis to choose the members. Instead they hand picked them - as explained in the article.

Your suggestion was for the establishment of a federal government.

If you invade a country, overthrow the government, and set up a new one, you are by definition stopping the existence of every other form of government. There can only be one, unless you are a fan of failed states.

Again, clearly explained in the article:

Quote:

Occupation authorities initially envisioned the creation of local assemblies, composed of several hundred delegates who would represent a city or town's tribes, clergy, middle class, women and ethnic groups. Those delegates would select a mayor and city council.

My understanding is that these local delegates were to be the representatives in a federal government. In any case this was the US's idea - to create representative local councils.

So the Iraqis started doing this - democratically - until the US finally caught on to the fact that this was actual democracy, and therefore unacceptable. So they put a stop to it.

Of course you can argue, as Bremer did in the article, that there are sound reasons to subvert democracy in this case (in the chaos of post-invasion the extremists are best placed to organise in a democracy), but the fact remains that it was subverted.

Actually, the one thing the US did to put the boot into Iraq was to ban Ba'athists and Republican Guards from all government jobs and seats. Iraq lost its administrative class immediately, and where did they go?

Al Qaida and ISIS.

Just think, they could have become the next South Korea.

Freeeeeedom, innit.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #27 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 6:25pm

FD wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 3:53pm:

Actually, the one thing the US did to put the boot into Iraq was to ban Ba'athists and Republican Guards from all government jobs and seats.

And apparently no one came up with a pre-invasion memo to distribute to the occupation planning team to explain that anyone taking up a public service position under Sadaam were required to join the Baath party. And Iraq was a particularly 'big government' country.

It quite beggars belief - did the US seriously not understand this beforehand, or did they actually knowingly put literally half the entire workforce of Iraq out of a job?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51839 At my desk.	Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution Reply #28 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 8:37pm Quote: So the Iraqis started doing this - democratically They had elections?
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Frank

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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #29 - Feb 21^st, 2019 at 8:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 6:25pm:

FD wrote on Feb 21^st, 2019 at 3:53pm:

Actually, the one thing the US did to put the boot into Iraq was to ban Ba'athists and Republican Guards from all government jobs and seats.

And apparently no one came up with a pre-invasion memo to distribute to the occupation planning team to explain that anyone taking up a public service position under Sadaam were required to join the Baath party. And Iraq was a particularly 'big government' country.

It quite beggars belief - did the US seriously not understand this beforehand, or did they actually knowingly put literally half the entire workforce of Iraq out of a job?

Gist: farkd before, during, after Saddam. America's fault, of course. Nuffin else to see here.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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