Australian Politics Forum - Islam is unreformable. Never ever.

Frank

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Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Jan 26^th, 2019 at 10:17am

Affection for the Prophet more than for life itself

The plight of the Pakistani Christian woman known as Asia Bibi has attracted much attention and comment in Australia since the unanimous judgment announced on 31 October 2018 by a three-judge panel of the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The court set aside her conviction in November 2010 for blasphemy, and acquitted her of the charge.

By contrast, the English language version of the court’s reasons, which can be read online, has excited little consideration here. This is unfortunate. The reasons set out the central role of blasphemy in Islam and why it is punishable by death. Australians should be encouraged to read the reasons. It will enable them to form and express their opinions in the ongoing public debate about the scope of the unique politico-religious claims made by Islam. That uniqueness supplies an internal, albeit grim, logic underpinning Islam’s life-controlling proscriptions and prescriptions.

The Supreme Court states that anything which in any way attacks any aspect of the Prophet’s sacred life, infuriates Muslims to an intolerable limit, resulting in extremely serious law and order situations, with grievous, disastrous consequences. The Prophet’s followers have immense love, admiration and affection for him, more than their own lives or the lives of their parents and children. No one can be allowed to defy the name of the Prophet nor can a person guilty of disrespecting the Prophet be let off scot-free.
...
The Supreme Court of Pakistan’s assessment that blasphemy infuriates Muslims across the globe to an intolerable limit was demonstrated in the violence of protesters in Sydney’s Hyde Park in late 2012 which was prompted by the film Innocence of Muslims. Their fury was further evident in the preparedness of some participating adults to parade children, at least one of them obviously below school age, holding aloft signs which contained the exhortation ‘BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET’.

On 11 December 2018 Justice Bellew of the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced a man who had been convicted of doing acts in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act or acts to sixteen years’ imprisonment.

His Honour noted that as a 12-year-old boy the offender had participated in the Hyde Park demonstration holding aloft one such sign.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #1 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:12am Any religion or idea is capable of reform. Change will only come. Unfortunately such change usually does not come about by peaceful means.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #2 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:15am

Auggie wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:12am:

Any religion or idea is capable of reform. Change will only come. Unfortunately such change usually does not come about by peaceful means.

In Iran if you oppose the Islamic regime they declare you an enemy of god and hang you.

How can you reform a religion that still has the death penalty for Blasphemy?

The murder of Salman Taseer shows it's considered blasphemy to oppose blasphemy laws.

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Frank

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #3 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:21am

Auggie wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:12am:

Any religion or idea is capable of reform. Change will only come. Unfortunately such change usually does not come about by peaceful means.

The Koran is the masterpiece of guidance and knowledge bestowed upon humanity by the Almighty. It cannot be modified in any way whatsoever. It is the final book. The commandments of the Almighty are entrenched in the Koran which provides for a complete way of life.

Asia Bibi, for example, was acquitted by the Supreme Court of Pakistan NOT because they threw out the sharia rules on blasphemy as outdated or irrelevant in a modern society but simply because the prosecution did not prove that the blasphemy occurred. In other words, there is not one iota of moving away from sharia law and its demands in relation to punishing blasphemy by death. Sharia rules are completely unchanged in 11400 years because the Koran's guidance is unmodifiable. For Muslims, its forever Groundhog Day of 8 June 632 AD.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #4 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:23am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:15am:

Auggie wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:12am:

Any religion or idea is capable of reform. Change will only come. Unfortunately such change usually does not come about by peaceful means.

In Iran if you oppose the Islamic regime they declare you an enemy of god and hang you.

How can you reform a religion that still has the death penalty for Blasphemy?

The murder of Salman Taseer shows it's considered blasphemy to oppose blasphemy laws.

Well, prior to 1978 it wasn't a crime when the Shah was in power.

Actually, it doesn't come down to the religion, it comes down the state. If the state is secular then blasphemy laws won't apply. This was the case in pre-Islamic revolution Iran and in post-independence Turkey.

The problem, especially with Pakistan is state formation.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #5 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:24am

Frank wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:21am:

Auggie wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:12am:

Any religion or idea is capable of reform. Change will only come. Unfortunately such change usually does not come about by peaceful means.

The Koran is the masterpiece of guidance and knowledge bestowed upon humanity by the Almighty. It cannot be modified in any way whatsoever. It is the final book. The commandments of the Almighty are entrenched in the Koran which provides for a complete way of life.

Asia Bibi, for example, was acquitted by the Supreme Court of Pakistan NOT because they threw out the sharia rules on blasphemy as outdated or irrelevant in a modern society but simply because the prosecution did not prove that the blasphemy occurred. In other words, there is not one iota of moving away from sharia law and its demands in relation to punishing blasphemy by death. Sharia rules are completely unchanged in 11400 years because the Koran's guidance is unmodifiable. For Muslims, its forever Groundhog Day of 8 June 632 AD.

So, doesn't this prove my point that in the end the state apparatus won. That they weren't able to prove the blasphemy charge indicates that secular law prevailed.

Second, the Quran doesn't change, but people's interpretation of it changes.

EDIT: how do you explain modernisation attempts in Iran, Turkey and Afghanistan during the 20th century? Doesn't this show that most Muslims are wiling to accept a secular state.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17506 Gender:	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #6 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:25am The Allah of the Quran says Islam has been perfected, why would muslims want to change a religion their god says is perfect? Quote: This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. https://quran.com/5/3
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Auggie

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #7 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:28am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:25am:

The Allah of the Quran says Islam has been perfected, why would muslims want to change a religion their god says is perfect?

Quote:

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.

https://quran.com/5/3

Yes, God did say this and it was one of the last things he had said before Muhammad died.

But here's the thing. If God perfected Islam at the time of Mohammad's death, then the territorial extent of Islam at the time of the Prophet's death should have been completed as well. Therefore, further territorial expansion was actually unislamic because it was exceeding God's perfection.

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Yadda

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #8 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:39am

Frank wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 10:17am:

Affection for the Prophet more than for life itself

The plight of the Pakistani Christian woman known as Asia Bibi has attracted much attention and comment in Australia since the unanimous judgment announced on 31 October 2018 by a three-judge panel of the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The court set aside her conviction in November 2010 for blasphemy, and acquitted her of the charge.

By contrast, the English language version of the court’s reasons, which can be read online, has excited little consideration here. This is unfortunate. The reasons set out the central role of blasphemy in Islam and why it is punishable by death. Australians should be encouraged to read the reasons. It will enable them to form and express their opinions in the ongoing public debate about the scope of the unique politico-religious claims made by Islam. That uniqueness supplies an internal, albeit grim, logic underpinning Islam’s life-controlling proscriptions and prescriptions.

The Supreme Court states that anything which in any way attacks any aspect of the Prophet’s sacred life, infuriates Muslims to an intolerable limit, resulting in extremely serious law and order situations, with grievous, disastrous consequences. The Prophet’s followers have immense love, admiration and affection for him, more than their own lives or the lives of their parents and children. No one can be allowed to defy the name of the Prophet nor can a person guilty of disrespecting the Prophet be let off scot-free.
...
The Supreme Court of Pakistan’s assessment that blasphemy infuriates Muslims across the globe to an intolerable limit was demonstrated in the violence of protesters in Sydney’s Hyde Park in late 2012 which was prompted by the film Innocence of Muslims. Their fury was further evident in the preparedness of some participating adults to parade children, at least one of them obviously below school age, holding aloft signs which contained the exhortation ‘BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET’.

On 11 December 2018 Justice Bellew of the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced a man who had been convicted of doing acts in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act or acts to sixteen years’ imprisonment.

His Honour noted that as a 12-year-old boy the offender had participated in the Hyde Park demonstration holding aloft one such sign.

IMAGES here.....

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Frank

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #9 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:54am

Yadda wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:39am:

Frank wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 10:17am:

Affection for the Prophet more than for life itself

The plight of the Pakistani Christian woman known as Asia Bibi has attracted much attention and comment in Australia since the unanimous judgment announced on 31 October 2018 by a three-judge panel of the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The court set aside her conviction in November 2010 for blasphemy, and acquitted her of the charge.

By contrast, the English language version of the court’s reasons, which can be read online, has excited little consideration here. This is unfortunate. The reasons set out the central role of blasphemy in Islam and why it is punishable by death. Australians should be encouraged to read the reasons. It will enable them to form and express their opinions in the ongoing public debate about the scope of the unique politico-religious claims made by Islam. That uniqueness supplies an internal, albeit grim, logic underpinning Islam’s life-controlling proscriptions and prescriptions.

The Supreme Court states that anything which in any way attacks any aspect of the Prophet’s sacred life, infuriates Muslims to an intolerable limit, resulting in extremely serious law and order situations, with grievous, disastrous consequences. The Prophet’s followers have immense love, admiration and affection for him, more than their own lives or the lives of their parents and children. No one can be allowed to defy the name of the Prophet nor can a person guilty of disrespecting the Prophet be let off scot-free.
...
The Supreme Court of Pakistan’s assessment that blasphemy infuriates Muslims across the globe to an intolerable limit was demonstrated in the violence of protesters in Sydney’s Hyde Park in late 2012 which was prompted by the film Innocence of Muslims. Their fury was further evident in the preparedness of some participating adults to parade children, at least one of them obviously below school age, holding aloft signs which contained the exhortation ‘BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET’.

On 11 December 2018 Justice Bellew of the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced a man who had been convicted of doing acts in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act or acts to sixteen years’ imprisonment.

His Honour noted that as a 12-year-old boy the offender had participated in the Hyde Park demonstration holding aloft one such sign.

IMAGES here.....

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0

That's not him, he was 12 at the time of the Hyde park riots.

In the Judgement he is identified only as HG : https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/5c048676e4b0851fd68d0027

It's probably him:

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Auggie

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #10 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 12:32pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:39am:

Frank wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 10:17am:

Affection for the Prophet more than for life itself

The plight of the Pakistani Christian woman known as Asia Bibi has attracted much attention and comment in Australia since the unanimous judgment announced on 31 October 2018 by a three-judge panel of the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The court set aside her conviction in November 2010 for blasphemy, and acquitted her of the charge.

By contrast, the English language version of the court’s reasons, which can be read online, has excited little consideration here. This is unfortunate. The reasons set out the central role of blasphemy in Islam and why it is punishable by death. Australians should be encouraged to read the reasons. It will enable them to form and express their opinions in the ongoing public debate about the scope of the unique politico-religious claims made by Islam. That uniqueness supplies an internal, albeit grim, logic underpinning Islam’s life-controlling proscriptions and prescriptions.

The Supreme Court states that anything which in any way attacks any aspect of the Prophet’s sacred life, infuriates Muslims to an intolerable limit, resulting in extremely serious law and order situations, with grievous, disastrous consequences. The Prophet’s followers have immense love, admiration and affection for him, more than their own lives or the lives of their parents and children. No one can be allowed to defy the name of the Prophet nor can a person guilty of disrespecting the Prophet be let off scot-free.
...
The Supreme Court of Pakistan’s assessment that blasphemy infuriates Muslims across the globe to an intolerable limit was demonstrated in the violence of protesters in Sydney’s Hyde Park in late 2012 which was prompted by the film Innocence of Muslims. Their fury was further evident in the preparedness of some participating adults to parade children, at least one of them obviously below school age, holding aloft signs which contained the exhortation ‘BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET’.

On 11 December 2018 Justice Bellew of the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced a man who had been convicted of doing acts in preparation for, or planning, a terrorist act or acts to sixteen years’ imprisonment.

His Honour noted that as a 12-year-old boy the offender had participated in the Hyde Park demonstration holding aloft one such sign.

IMAGES here.....

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0

Thus spake Yadda...

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Yadda

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #11 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 12:44pm

Frank wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 11:54am:

That's not him, he was 12 at the time of the Hyde park riots.

In the Judgement he is identified only as HG : https://www.caselaw.nsw.gov.au/decision/5c048676e4b0851fd68d0027

It's probably him:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Islamic_Protest_in_Hyde_Park...

And yet,

that other kid too, is prolly on the exact same path.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1536141258/46#46

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1534830555/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #12 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 1:09pm According to Dr Ross, Islam is reforming, as we speak. He even supplied links to web pages that proved it. ( Charlie Hebdo Day. Shown to be 90% unrelated) This was an about face, from someone who had been assuring us that Islam was no worse than any other culture.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47471 At my desk.	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #13 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 2:37pm Quote: Actually, it doesn't come down to the religion, it comes down the state. The distinction is meaningless in Islam.
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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #14 - Jan 26^th, 2019 at 3:22pm freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2019 at 2:37pm: Quote: Actually, it doesn't come down to the religion, it comes down the state. The distinction is meaningless in Islam. Many Muslims don't think it's meaningless.
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