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A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution (Read 5262 times)
freediver
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A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:13pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:37am:
freediver wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:37am:
And you lie about the Taliban.


Spoken like a true hysteric.

freediver wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:37am:
What do you think the implications would be of letting Muslims win a war against democracy?


Oh, you must be talking about the wrong kind of democracy - like when post-invasion Iraq tried to set up their own local democratic councils, that would elect candidates to the new federal parliament - but was quashed, violently, by the US occupation forces - in favour of their own puppets - and then the Iraqis fought against that. Or are you talking about when the Afghanis starting pushing back on the despot Karzai who the US repeatedly rigged elections for? Or maybe you mean when the US backed the brutal dictator Suharto in his coup against Sukarno who was in the midst of pushing through democratic reforms? Iran 1953...? etc etc.

I'm wondering, has the US actually ever fought "for democracy" in any of their interventions in the muslim world? Actual democracy I mean, as in letting the people decide.


Quote:
I just finished describing how *actual* democracy


Like I said, it sounded more like a backdoor religious dictatorship to me. A democracy set up by people whose primary concern is preventing democracy.

Quote:
You are literally saying that its right and appropriate to make muslim's democratic choices for them


Quote me. And while you are at it, please explain on what basis you speak for the majority of Iraqis in promoting this alternative.
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« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:12pm by freediver »  

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Mattyfisk
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #1 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:46pm
 
Did you answer G's question, FD?

I'm curious. I'd like to know your answer.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #2 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 12:10pm
 
FD wonders where I get that he advocated we make muslim's democratic choices for them - after the following response to my point about post-invasion Iraq...

Quote:
when post-invasion Iraq tried to set up their own local democratic councils, that would elect candidates to the new federal parliament


freediver wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
it sounded more like a backdoor religious dictatorship to me.



He then unwittingly gives a perfect description of how US regime changes always pan out...

freediver wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
A democracy set up by people whose primary concern is preventing democracy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #3 - Feb 14th, 2019 at 12:21pm
 
Gandalf can you explain on what basis you claim to speak for the majority of Iraqis in promoting this alternative.

Also, where did you hear this story of the alternative constitution?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #4 - Feb 14th, 2019 at 1:50pm
 
FD I never mentioned any "alternative constitution". Where did you get that from?

US occupation forces quashing local elections, article from June 2003...

Quote:
U.S. military commanders have ordered a halt to local elections and self-rule in provincial cities and towns across Iraq, choosing instead to install their own handpicked mayors and administrators, many of whom are former Iraqi military leaders.

The decision to deny Iraqis a direct role in selecting municipal governments is creating anger and resentment among aspiring leaders and ordinary citizens, who say the U.S.-led occupation forces are not making good on their promise to bring greater freedom and democracy to a country dominated for three decades by Saddam Hussein.


and why was this?

Quote:
Occupation authorities initially envisioned the creation of local assemblies, composed of several hundred delegates who would represent a city or town's tribes, clergy, middle class, women and ethnic groups. Those delegates would select a mayor and city council.

That process was employed successfully in the northern city of Kirkuk, but U.S. civilian and military occupation officials now say postwar chaos has left Iraq unprepared to stage popular elections in most cities.

"In a postwar situation like this, if you start holding elections, the people who are rejectionists tend to win," Bremer said. "It's often the best-organized who win, and the best-organized right now are the former Baathists and to some extent the Islamists." Bremer was referring to members of Hussein's Baath Party and religiously oriented political leaders.

Bremer and other U.S. officials are fearful that Islamic leaders such as Moqtada Sadr, a young Shiite Muslim cleric popular on the streets of Baghdad, and Ayatollah Mohammed Bakir Hakim, leader of the Iranian-supported Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, would be best positioned to field winning candidates.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/06/28/occupation-forces-hal...

ah - because the US feared that having an actual democracy might actually work - ie Iraqis might actually vote for who they want. Certainly can't have that can we!
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #5 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 12:53pm
 
Quote:
FD I never mentioned any "alternative constitution". Where did you get that from?


Your suggesting. Is your preferred option for Muslim leaders to run the place without any sort of constitution?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #6 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:34pm
 
What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #7 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 12:53pm:

Is your preferred option for Muslim leaders to run the place without any sort of constitution?




gandalf,

Do you feel that it is true,      ....that all devout followers of ISLAM believe that the Koran should be the primary source and authority for all of the laws,
which would govern a moslem majority society ?



Quote:

"The Koran is our constitution"

"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"

"Jihad is our path"

"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"


- Mild mannered - Mohammed Morsi - one time Ex-President of Egypt


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #8 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 2:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:34pm:

What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.



You are not saying.           ....very much at all, on this forum.


gandalf,

Aren't you a firm and confident, devout believer ?




Don't you have any fixed opinions     at all     about 1/ what is virtuous and 2/ what is NOT so virtuous, about ISLAM/and the behaviour of the followers of ISLAM ?


.......except to declare such platitudes as;

Quote:
"I believe in a peaceful, tolerant islam"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1418703040/1#1


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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freediver
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #9 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:30pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.


Would you say you are proposing an alternative constitution?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #10 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:46pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:30pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.


Would you say you are proposing an alternative constitution?


No. And I can't even begin to understand why you would think so.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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John Smith
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #11 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:54pm
 
wasn't there some rule about using peoples names in thread titles?

Cheesy Cheesy
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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freediver
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Re: Gandalf's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #12 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:11pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 7:46pm:
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 6:30pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 15th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
What I'm saying has nothing to do with what constitution Iraqis have FD.


Would you say you are proposing an alternative constitution?


No. And I can't even begin to understand why you would think so.


So they can achieve what you suggest within the current Iraqi constitution?

Perhaps you should just explain what you meant rather than expecting people to guess.
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freediver
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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #13 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:12pm
 
Thanks John. Consider my wrist slapped.
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issuevoter
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Re: A Muslim's alternative Iraqi constitution
Reply #14 - Feb 15th, 2019 at 10:44pm
 
Democratic or otherwise, this is what you can expect from Islam, unless you bow down to them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Rajib_Haider
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