Australian Politics Forum - Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem

Karnal

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #240 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:13pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 10:52am:

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:00am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:32am:

1)You haven't read these reports have you, dear?

Strange. One is the EU's own 2017 report on terrorism in Europe.

Who'd ignore that? In a thread about terrorism in Europe?

Let's see: Homo, Grappler, Matty, the old boy - oh, and FD.

Is it because you know the answers already, dear?

Apology required.

2) There's a new one, Greggery. We've moved onto worldwide terrorism.

You might want to post that in Issue's cheery Muslim anniversary thread, Grapper.

Apology required.

3)Let's stick with European terrorism, dear. It's not currently at war, like many of the countries in your list.

Apology required

That time of the month is it, love?

There there, we understand. You can't be bothered reading the links in this thread.

Too hormonal.

No apology for being totally wrong and for throwing jibes at me, then, coward?

Gutless little turd.

At least greg has backed away from that nonsense in the light of truth thrown on the issue raised - that most terrorist attacks are in fact carried out by terrorists 'today' in Europe - but you're hardly a man, are you.. no guts to say you were wrong and apologise for your silly games.

Adios, muchacho...

You know, Grappler? For all your hostility, you post some excellent research. I haven't forgotten the DV research you posted from America. It said most of the violence was two-sided or initiated by DV victims. I still think about this research in my work.

You raise a good point here too, but you need to read others' research too, if you're going to engage in proper debate. The EU security agencies themselves report that the majority of terrorist plots and attacks are non-Muslim. The FBI reports the same in the US.

Personally, I think it's pretty dumb to question these authorities. Billions are spent preventing terrorism, and most of it is prevented. They both report that Islamicist terrorism, while a major threat, is in the minority.

These agencies have different classifications for terrorism. As a law enforcement agency, the FBI focuses on the intent of the crime - to cause fear. The EU focus more on the scope of the crime - public disorder. They also look at connection to a protest group, which the FBI doesn't do. In Europe, hate crimes constitute a different category, as I've argued. Graffiti and internet posts are not included in any of the statistics, although they might be used to prove links to a cause.

I agree that hate crimes in Europe are often revenge for Islamicist attacks, but only in the abstract. Hate crimes often target non-Muslim immigrants or gays. I argue that these crimes are on the rise as social media takes hold and more extremists come out of the woodwork. Here on this board, we've also seen many people convert to extremist causes, such as FD.

It is my belief that white supremacism is by far the biggest threat to the Western world. We are entering an era similar in nature to the European fascism of the 1920s and 30s. Then, fascism was a response to communism. Now, right-wing extremism is almost solely a response to immigration and race.

FD believes that Islam is the biggest threat to Western civilisation. Presumably, he means it's competing to take the West over. I think this is ludicrous.

The bigger threat by far is the undermining of our liberties. More important, perhaps, is the attack on reason. People go to great lengths to lie about Islam. Like Orwell said in 1984, freedom is the ability to say that two plus two equals four. By the end of the book, Winston Smith is so defeated he believes that two plus two equals five.

This is exactly the position we find ourselves in today, but with people voluntarily acquiescing to the lies. They are active players in it. Rather than the top-down state model of Orwell, the hate and lies today are socially constructed. People are quite willing to give away their belief and suspend their reason.

To me, this is the most dangerous threat we face today.

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« Last Edit: Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:23pm by Karnal »

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98973	Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge Reply #241 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:13pm I blame Islam.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #242 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:15pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 11:59am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 11:36am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 10:54am:

You're as bad a reader as that idiot Karnal, aren't you? I posted facts for you for 2018 - that's 'today' by any standard - that clearly show the majority of terrorist attacks in Europe 'today' are by Muslims.

How many times must it be explained to you - yet you persist with the same lies.

You posted extracts from incomplete lists on Wiki.

You'll see that they actually admit:

- "This is a list of some of the terrorist, alleged terrorist or suspected terrorist incidents which took place in January 2018 ...", and;

- "Note that terrorism related to drug wars and cartel violence is not included in these lists."

The information you provided is not a comprehensive list of all terrorist attacks.

If you had listed the complete list you would see that the majority of terrorist attacks are carried out by non-Muslims.

The link has the worldwide list - the articles listed at the top of my post are ALL such acts in Europe in 2018 - not just 'Muslim' ones.... the Muslim ones are in red and and Muslims win by a country mile in both number and casualties.

Stop obfuscating - you lost.

If you wish to challenge Wiki's list - post your own list with link(s)......

I'll try again - list every terrorist incident in Europe in 2018 ('today') - and posit which group it comes from.... as Wikipedia has done.....

You can't continue to rely on blind utterances to uphold your position..... try evidence and not just blind links that ramble about some generalised concept... specific list...

On the clear evidence for 2018, Muslim terrorist acts far out-weigh all other, singly or combined.

Muslims are deep into the drug wars and cartel wars? Wow..... makes a huge difference then, greg.. Roll Eyes

Grap: it's quite clear in what it says.

- "This is a list of some of the terrorist, alleged terrorist or suspected terrorist incidents which took place in January 2018 ...", and;

- "Note that terrorism related to drug wars and cartel violence is not included in these lists."

I will, however, concede that the majority of Islamic terrorism is carried out by Muslims, if that helps at all.

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Karnal

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #243 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:33pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:03pm:

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 11:42am:

aquascoot wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 6:17am:

its an interesting pre-supposition.

the islamic faith is a belief system.
we need belief systems.
the world is so complex that you have to have a belief system or else you just get overwhelmed.
and if you get overwhelmed you become anxious and nihilistic and the cortisol and adrenaline that this causes demolishes your health.

so EVERYONE has a belief system.

but what if we have 2 groups with different belief systems.
say russia and the USA circa 1960.
well that nearly ended in the demolition of the planet so its a difficult thing to have 2 opposing belief systems that can peacefully occupy the same space.

can islam peacefully occupy the same space with the west.
good question.
maybe, but maybe not.
if they are going to then there is going to have to be dialogue.

and thats where the left get it all wrong.
the left dont understand that the only way to have dialogue is for people to be able to engage in free speech and say exactly what they think.
they cant just be shut down and labelled racist or misogynist or whatever and then the dialogue ended.

thats actually a bigger problem.

the radical left, they dont want to hear from the right AT ALL.
they just want to silence them with legislation.
and the blow back is that the right are now falling for this belief system as well.

both the right and the left are now playing identity politics and people are fracturing along tribal lines.

and when they cant speak to each other (and they cant becuase the left will not engage in dialogue with the right), then all that is left is to fight.

charlottesville is a much more worrying event then the muslim issue.

most muslims have a good belief system based on family and respect for parents etc.

the left are nihilistic and lost and the new marxism of the left sees everyone as oppressor or victim.
AND the oppressors are not allowed to talk becuase that legitimises their power.
its seriously not good.

this identity politics as played by obama and clinton led to the blowback that elected trump.
and the left and the right cannot talk.

you just try and have a conversation with marla or karnal or gweg.
its never going to happen.
and with this "free speech" shut down, all there is left is to fight.
lucky the nihilistic left dont have nukes in my opinion Wink

Yes, Aquascoot, but what the knuckleheads are proposing here is that the conservative belief system, Islam, is responsible for more terrorist attacks than anarchists, national separatists and white nationalists.

When it was proven to be the opposite, they showed that the conservative Islam is responsible for more killings.

And all we've had since is a fight.

greg specified Europe and 'today' - nobody mentioned the US in terms of overall terrorist acts - but worldwide the Muslims are leading in 2018, anyway.... and just because the West has better security services and arrests more (there is a chart of arrest for terrorism which Muslims also lead), doesn't mean that Muslims are minority terrorists in 2018.

You need aso to get your mind around simple things - in war a soldier can still be charged with murder - in any war, a terrorist act remains a terrorist act... simply citing that a country at war mitigates terrorism is not valid.

When a suicide bomber in Kabul attacks a wedding party and kills 82 civilians - that is clearly an act of terrorism and not of war.... get it right.

Of course it's an act of terrorism, but it's terrorism carried out by parties in the context of civil war.

You can't compare Afghanistan or Iraq to Germany.

The figures all show that Islamicist terrorism is in the minority compared to other forms of terrorism. The reports all state this. Sometimes, when you look at the data, you can understand the scale of a problem, and this is one of those times.

Greggery has good reason for believing most terror attacks in Europe are non-Moslem. He's right.

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Bobby.

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #244 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2018 at 9:48pm:

Fuzzball wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2018 at 12:38pm:

Pessary 'thinks' (if he's capable of thought) that by repeating the same cr@p over and over again he will convince people that what he spews is true..........as usual he's WRONG!

Who is Greggy with?

Karnal _ who are you with?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #245 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:43pm

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:13pm:

You know, Grappler? For all your hostility, you post some excellent research. I haven't forgotten the DV research you posted from America. It said most of the violence was two-sided or initiated by DV victims. I still think about this research in my work.

You raise a good point here too, but you need to read others' research too, if you're going to engage in proper debate. The EU security agencies themselves report that the majority of terrorist plots and attacks are non-Muslim. The FBI reports the same in the US.

Personally, I think it's pretty dumb to question these authorities. Billions are spent preventing terrorism, and most of it is prevented. They both report that Islamicist terrorism, while a major threat, is in the minority.

These agencies have different classifications for terrorism. As a law enforcement agency, the FBI focuses on the intent of the crime - to cause fear. The EU focus more on the scope of the crime - public disorder. They also look at connection to a protest group, which the FBI doesn't do. In Europe, hate crimes constitute a different category, as I've argued. Graffiti and internet posts are not included in any of the statistics, although they might be used to prove links to a cause.

I agree that hate crimes in Europe are often revenge for Islamicist attacks, but only in the abstract. Hate crimes often target non-Muslim immigrants or gays. I argue that these crimes are on the rise as social media takes hold and more extremists come out of the woodwork. Here on this board, we've also seen many people convert to extremist causes, such as FD.

It is my belief that white supremacism is by far the biggest threat to the Western world. We are entering an era similar in nature to the European fascism of the 1920s and 30s. Then, fascism was a response to communism. Now, right-wing extremism is almost solely a response to immigration and race.

FD believes that Islam is the biggest threat to Western civilisation. Presumably, he means it's competing to take the West over. I think this is ludicrous.

The bigger threat by far is the undermining of our liberties. More important, perhaps, is the attack on reason. People go to great lengths to lie about Islam. Like Orwell said in 1984, freedom is the ability to say that two plus two equals four. By the end of the book, Winston Smith is so defeated he believes that two plus two equals five.

This is exactly the position we find ourselves in today, but with people voluntarily acquiescing to the lies. They are active players in it. Rather than the top-down state model of Orwell, the hate and lies today are socially constructed. People are quite willing to give away their belief and suspend their reason.

To me, this is the most dangerous threat we face today.

Excellent post! Smiley

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #246 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:11pm

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:33pm:

Of course it's an act of terrorism, but it's terrorism carried out by parties in the context of civil war.

You can't compare Afghanistan or Iraq to Germany.

The figures all show that Islamicist terrorism is in the minority compared to other forms of terrorism. The reports all state this. Sometimes, when you look at the data, you can understand the scale of a problem, and this is one of those times.

Greggery has good reason for believing most terror attacks in Europe are non-Moslem. He's right.

At last now you're trying to mount an argument....

So now you want grades of terrorist act, do you?

Someone.. Bobby I think.. asked that yesterday or the day before - do you want different classes of terrorist acts, determined by what rules? Number of dead? Number of injured? Size of bomb? Number of guns involved? Knives or guns? Where it took place?

A terrorist act is a terrorist act .....

My primary figures relate directly to Europe 'today' as in 2018 - as specified by greg - and greg is incorrect.

Most terrorist acts in non-war countries of Europe in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, and in worldwide figures it is about the same.

Relying on old and more general links will not help the current situation for anyone, and pedantically repeating over and over and twisting like an eel will not change the facts.

Most terrorist acts in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, which presents THE clear and present danger. Most arrests for terrorism worldwide were of Muslim planning terrorist acts or having carried those out.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #247 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:13pm

You're the one who made inferences about 'periods', Karnal and who keeps denying facts put before you and preferring to slag the presenter - don't mention 'hostility' with regard to anyone else....

I think you need a long look at yourself first before you start slinging even more mud.

Check your hormone balance....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Secret Wars

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #248 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:16pm

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:13pm:

People go to great lengths to lie about Islam. Like Orwell said in 1984, freedom is the ability to say that two plus two equals four
This is exactly the position we find ourselves in today, but with people voluntarily acquiescing to the lies. They are active players in it.

Indeed they do, alakbahing beardy weirdy declares jihad and goes choppy choppy and its nuffin to do wiv Islam.

Two plus two equals nuffin to see and if you do see something you're an islamaphobe isn't it. Roll Eyes

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #249 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:18pm

Read your own post - the European agencies approach it from the view of 'public order', meaning that often they do not title an act as terrorist or religion-related or whatever, but persist with the myth that these factors have nothing to do with 'lone, crazed individuals'.

The definition of terrorism used in the list I presented is right there for all to see.... in that link.

Rather than it being a case of myself not looking at other things - it is you. Are you suggesting that a pair of ratbags attacking people while screaming Allahu Akbar is a public order issue? Or that the Charlie Hebdo massacre is a public order issue?

They are ALL 'public order issues' in some ways - but other factors create of them terrorist acts.

I've studied terrorism BTW.... and counter-terrorism and national security.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #250 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:19pm

Secret Wars wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:13pm:

People go to great lengths to lie about Islam. Like Orwell said in 1984, freedom is the ability to say that two plus two equals four
This is exactly the position we find ourselves in today, but with people voluntarily acquiescing to the lies. They are active players in it.

Indeed they do, alakbahing beardy weirdy declares jihad and goes choppy choppy and its nuffin to do wiv Islam.

Two plus two equals nuffin to see and if you do see something you're an islamaphobe isn't it. Roll Eyes

And who are these people who go to great lengths to lie about Islam, Karnal - and what is their motivation?

It looks to me that your view is that anyone who does not accept the 'official' line that Islam is exclusively the religion of peace, is a liar..... so now we live in 1984 where all the news articles are products of Hollywood?

Where is your list of terrorist acts in Europe 2018 and to whom they are subscribed??

You need to counter fact with fact..... not just vague references to your 'research'... and you need to stop considering that any view that is not positive to Islam is somehow hatred.... that's a poor excuse for not discussing real issues of life and death for too many to date.

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« Last Edit: Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:30pm by Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #251 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:19pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:11pm:

At last now you're trying to mount an argument....

So now you want grades of terrorist act, do you?

Someone.. Bobby I think.. asked that yesterday or the day before - do you want different classes of terrorist acts, determined by what rules? Number of dead? Number of injured? Size of bomb? Number of guns involved? Knives or guns? Where it took place?

A terrorist act is a terrorist act .....

My primary figures relate directly to Europe 'today' as in 2018 - as specified by greg - and greg is incorrect.

Most terrorist acts in non-war countries of Europe in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, and in worldwide figures it is about the same.

Relying on old and more general links will not help the current situation for anyone, and pedantically repeating over and over and twisting like an eel will not change the facts.

Most terrorist acts in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, which presents THE clear and present danger. Most arrests for terrorism worldwide were of Muslim planning terrorist acts or having carried those out.

Your figures are incomplete.

- "This is a list of some of the terrorist, alleged terrorist or suspected terrorist incidents which took place in January 2018 ...", and;

- "Note that terrorism related to drug wars and cartel violence is not included in these lists."

Complete lists show that the majority of terrorist attacks in Europe today are carried out by non-Muslims.

Most Islamic terrorism, however, is indeed carried out by Muslims.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88810 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge Reply #252 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:31pm You too, greg, counter facts presented with facts - and not just more empty rhetoric and references to outdated links. Where is YOUR list of terrorist acts 2018 in Europe and to whom are those acts subscribed? LIST!
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #253 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:37pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:19pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:11pm:

At last now you're trying to mount an argument....

So now you want grades of terrorist act, do you?

Someone.. Bobby I think.. asked that yesterday or the day before - do you want different classes of terrorist acts, determined by what rules? Number of dead? Number of injured? Size of bomb? Number of guns involved? Knives or guns? Where it took place?

A terrorist act is a terrorist act .....

My primary figures relate directly to Europe 'today' as in 2018 - as specified by greg - and greg is incorrect.

Most terrorist acts in non-war countries of Europe in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, and in worldwide figures it is about the same.

Relying on old and more general links will not help the current situation for anyone, and pedantically repeating over and over and twisting like an eel will not change the facts.

Most terrorist acts in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, which presents THE clear and present danger. Most arrests for terrorism worldwide were of Muslim planning terrorist acts or having carried those out.

Your figures are incomplete.

- "This is a list of some of the terrorist, alleged terrorist or suspected terrorist incidents which took place in January 2018 ...", and;

- "Note that terrorism related to drug wars and cartel violence is not included in these lists."

Complete lists show that the majority of terrorist attacks in Europe today are carried out by non-Muslims.

Most Islamic terrorism, however, is indeed carried out by Muslims.

Muslims do not customarily engage in drug wars or cartel violence in Europe or anywhere else, so your criticism is meaningless.

A drug war or cartel violence is usually against a defined enemy and not just an attempt to instill fear in the general populace... it may have that side effect - but that is not a definitive intent. Very few outside of those drug wars and cartel violence are non--players..... whereas the clear intent of terrorist acts is to instill fear in principally non-players and thus exert pressure on government.

Not working in Europe, North America or Australia these days for the Muslim adherents to terrorism... in fact the opposite in that they are generating a response of tightened security and arrests and closer scrutiny, not to mention a shoot to kill order.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Karnal

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Re: Most terror attacks in Europe, non-moslem - gregge
Reply #254 - Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:44pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 1:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2018 at 12:33pm:

Of course it's an act of terrorism, but it's terrorism carried out by parties in the context of civil war.

You can't compare Afghanistan or Iraq to Germany.

The figures all show that Islamicist terrorism is in the minority compared to other forms of terrorism. The reports all state this. Sometimes, when you look at the data, you can understand the scale of a problem, and this is one of those times.

Greggery has good reason for believing most terror attacks in Europe are non-Moslem. He's right.

At last now you're trying to mount an argument....

So now you want grades of terrorist act, do you?

Someone.. Bobby I think.. asked that yesterday or the day before - do you want different classes of terrorist acts, determined by what rules? Number of dead? Number of injured? Size of bomb? Number of guns involved? Knives or guns? Where it took place?

A terrorist act is a terrorist act .....

My primary figures relate directly to Europe 'today' as in 2018 - as specified by greg - and greg is incorrect.

Most terrorist acts in non-war countries of Europe in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, and in worldwide figures it is about the same.

Relying on old and more general links will not help the current situation for anyone, and pedantically repeating over and over and twisting like an eel will not change the facts.

Most terrorist acts in 2018 were carried out by Muslims, which presents THE clear and present danger. Most arrests for terrorism worldwide were of Muslim planning terrorist acts or having carried those out.

No, dear, I don't want to grade acts of terrorism, I'm simply going on the European criteria that is the subject of this thread. If you read our earlier posts, you'd know this.

Most of the terrorist incidents we're discussing are thwarted plots - no casualties.

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