Australian Politics Forum - The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy

freediver

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #30 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 12:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2018 at 1:12pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2018 at 6:16pm:

Can you cite a greater modern threat to freedom and democracy than Islam Gandalf?

Yes, hypocrite freedom warriors (like you) who turn a blind eye to the persecution/discrimination of minorities.

Tell me FD, whose freedoms do you think are under greater threat in the west:

1. people who want to criticise Islam?
2. muslims who want to practice their religion (things like wearing the burqa)?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2018 at 1:42pm:

I'm sorry FD - you seem to be confused by the simple concept of not being able to wear what you want is actually the threat to freedom and democracy.

Either that or this is what passes for FD humour.

Are you shifting the goal posts already Gandalf?

Do you think people who speak out against the burqa ban are the biggest threat to freedom and democracy?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 99239	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #31 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:11pm FD, do you think white supremacists who oppose freedom and democracy are the biggest threat to freedom and democracy? You haven't said.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #32 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:33pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 12:55pm:

Do you think people who speak out against the burqa ban are the biggest threat to freedom and democracy?

No. And I don't even know why you are asking this. It makes no sense and has nothing to do with what I said.

In case you are still confused, this is what I asked:

Tell me FD, whose freedoms do you think are under greater threat in the west:

1. people who want to criticise Islam?
2. muslims who want to practice their religion (things like wearing the burqa)?

Feel free to have a go answering it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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goldkam

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #33 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm

freediver wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 12:55pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2018 at 1:12pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2018 at 6:16pm:

Can you cite a greater modern threat to freedom and democracy than Islam Gandalf?

Yes, hypocrite freedom warriors (like you) who turn a blind eye to the persecution/discrimination of minorities.

Tell me FD, whose freedoms do you think are under greater threat in the west:

1. people who want to criticise Islam?
2. muslims who want to practice their religion (things like wearing the burqa)?

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2018 at 1:42pm:

I'm sorry FD - you seem to be confused by the simple concept of not being able to wear what you want is actually the threat to freedom and democracy.

Either that or this is what passes for FD humour.

Are you shifting the goal posts already Gandalf?

Do you think people who speak out against the burqa ban are the biggest threat to freedom and democracy?

Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua.
Freedom of religion is in our Constitution and always has been. Anti-Discrimination has been emebedded in legislation for years.
No doubt those wanting to wear such garments must also respect the various rules and rules in place

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #34 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:43pm goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm: Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua. Could you explain that please?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

goldkam

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #35 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:43pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm:

Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua.

Could you explain that please?

Those who who comtinually speak out and support the banning of the burqua are in support of removing the rights and freedoms of those who wear a burqua.

These are rigths contained within various legislative documents

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Aussie

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #36 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:49pm

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:43pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm:

Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua.

Could you explain that please?

Those who who comtinually speak out and support the banning of the burqua are in support of removing the rights and freedoms of those who wear a burqua.

These are rigths contained within various legislative documents

Can you provide me with the specific legislative documents?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #37 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:51pm

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:43pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm:

Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua.

Could you explain that please?

Those who who comtinually speak out and support the banning of the burqua are in support of removing the rights and freedoms of those who wear a burqua.

These are rigths contained within various legislative documents

Agreed. Sorry I misread you - I though you meant those who speak out against the ban were the threat to their freedoms.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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goldkam

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #38 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 3:02pm

IAussie wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:49pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:43pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm:

Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua.

Could you explain that please?

Those who who comtinually speak out and support the banning of the burqua are in support of removing the rights and freedoms of those who wear a burqua.

These are rigths contained within various legislative documents

Can you provide me with the specific legislative documents?

I am not sure if you are quizzing me or are unsure. But every Australian should at least know the right to religion is contained within (expressively) the Constitution. It is also contained with state Anti Discrimination laws.

Moving more broadly. It is also contained in the UDHR.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39498 Gender:	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #39 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 3:10pm I am both quizzing and unsure what you mean. There is no specific legislation in Australia which enshrines a right to wear a burqa.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #40 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 3:25pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 3:10pm:

I am both quizzing and unsure what you mean. There is no specific legislation in Australia which enshrines a right to wear a burqa.

Given that a) wearing the burqa is generally acknowledged as expressing someone's religion and b) the constitution says that no legislation can be enacted that violates freedom of religion - surely the right to wear a burqa is already a given?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Aussie

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #41 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 3:34pm

Quote:

I think there are some vague state laws that specify freedom of religion, and burqa wearing is generally accepted as exercising this freedom?

I am aware of none, hence my question to goldkam.

Quote:

Either way, in order for people to *NOT* have a right to wear the burqa - would surely require specific legislation saying so no? And that would probably fall foul of the constitution which says no legislation can be enacted to restrict freedom of religion.

There is scant but real reference in the Constitution. This is it:

Quote:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Very importantly, note that the provision applies only to the Federal Government ("the Commonwealth")....and NOT State Governments.

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Karnal

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #42 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 4:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:51pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:43pm:

goldkam wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 2:40pm:

Those who speak out in that sense are a threat to the rights and freedoms of those who wear the burqua.

Could you explain that please?

Those who who comtinually speak out and support the banning of the burqua are in support of removing the rights and freedoms of those who wear a burqua.

These are rigths contained within various legislative documents

Agreed. Sorry I misread you - I though you meant those who speak out against the ban were the threat to their freedoms.

FD cunningly avoids calls to ban the burqa. Ask him - he won't say.

What FD wants is a ban on Muslims. If you catch him out in a moment of honesty, he'll tell you that.

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Karnal

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Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy
Reply #43 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 4:06pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 14^th, 2018 at 3:34pm:

Quote:

I think there are some vague state laws that specify freedom of religion, and burqa wearing is generally accepted as exercising this freedom?

I am aware of none, hence my question to goldkam.

Quote:

Either way, in order for people to *NOT* have a right to wear the burqa - would surely require specific legislation saying so no? And that would probably fall foul of the constitution which says no legislation can be enacted to restrict freedom of religion.

There is scant but real reference in the Constitution. This is it:

Quote:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Very importantly, note that the provision applies only to the Federal Government ("the Commonwealth")....and NOT State Governments.

Good point, Aussie, but don't the states have similar clauses in their own constitutions?

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39498 Gender:	Re: The biggest threat to Freedom and democracy Reply #44 - Aug 14^th, 2018 at 4:19pm I know that with respect to Queensland, the answer is...no.
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