Australian Politics Forum - trees rocks talk donkeys fly

Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #345 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:34pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:05pm:

Thanks Gandalf. Now here's a Muslim with nothing to hide.

Oh you need a translation FD? Sorry I keep forgetting someone who clearly is so knowledgable in an arabic text - doesn't actually know any arabic.

No worries...

[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

"whoever has assaulted you"
"assault him in the same way"

Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?

Again, feel free to re-read (or just read) my explanation of the verse, along with explanations of the actual arabic used.

So by fighting Muhammad meant one on one fisticuffs?

Did Malik translate it incorrectly?

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months

The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.

Can you explain how this works outside the context of war? Why would Muhammad forbid fighting in the sacred months, then permit it? Are Muslims supposed to pick random fights with people outside the sacred months? Are Muslims supposed to escalate any domestic conflict that occurs outside the sacred months?

Did Asad also get it wrong?

Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: 171 for a violation of sanctity is [subject to the law of] just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.

Also, can you explain why you use verse 2:193 as a reference to a just war doctrine of self defence:

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Then insist that the very next verse means something entirely different when it talks about fighting?

194. The sacred month for the sacred month; and sacrilege calls for retaliation. Whoever commits aggression against you, retaliate against him in the same measure as he has committed against you. And be conscious of God, and know that God is with the righteous.

Also, are any of these preceding verses about war?

190. And fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression; God does not love the aggressors.

191. And kill them wherever you overtake them, and expel them from where they had expelled you. Oppression is more serious than murder. But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you there. If they fight you, then kill them. Such is the retribution of the disbelievers.

192. But if they cease, then God is Forgiving and Merciful.

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Also, what are we to make of verse 9:5, which calls for hostile agressive war outside of the sacred months? Does this not point to the restriction on fighting within the sacred months being a reference to war?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.

All the verses you've just quoted are self-defence verses. So, what's your point?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47631 At my desk.	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #346 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:36pm My point is that Gandalf lied about verse 2:194 by claiming it was not about warfare. He told this lie because conceding that it is in fact about warfare makes a mockery of his efforts to build a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality around other verses. What do you think?
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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92584 Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #347 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:36pm And what does this mean? Quote: So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
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Mattyfisk

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #348 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:39pm

How about this?

Quote:

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

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Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #349 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:40pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

My point is that Gandalf lied about verse 2:194 by claiming it was not about warfare. He told this lie because conceding that it is in fact about warfare makes a mockery of his efforts to build a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality around other verses.

What do you think?

So, it's about warfare. I agree. Proportionality is very rarely conducted in war. Just because his actions were always proportional, doesn't mean that it wasn't self-defence.

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

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Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #350 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:41pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:39pm:

How about this?

Quote:

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

Freedom, innit?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #351 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:41pm

Or this?

Quote:

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

It keeps mentioning treaties. It's the first five verses of chapter 9. Should we keep going?

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Mattyfisk

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #352 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:46pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:41pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:39pm:

How about this?

Quote:

And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

Freedom, innit?

Quote:

So travel freely, [O disbelievers]

So unfair.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 92584 Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #353 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:47pm FD?
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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #354 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:47pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:40pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

My point is that Gandalf lied about verse 2:194 by claiming it was not about warfare. He told this lie because conceding that it is in fact about warfare makes a mockery of his efforts to build a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality around other verses.

What do you think?

So, it's about warfare. I agree. Proportionality is very rarely conducted in war. Just because his actions were always proportional, doesn't mean that it wasn't self-defence.

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Read the verse - it clearly and unambiguously (save for Gandalf's lies that it is about street brawls) establishes what Gandalf has been trying to twist other verses into - a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Only problem for Gandalf is that it limits this doctrine to the holy months. As the other verses say, fighting is prescribed outside the holy months, kill the mushriken wherever you find them, etc

2:194 During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe God and know that God is with the righteous.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #355 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:51pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Did Malik translate it incorrectly?

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months

The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.

Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force

note the singular 'anyone' The word translated here is 'اعتدي' - which is conjugated in the singular form. So it literally says "a (single) person attacks" (singular). If it was plural it would be written with the plural conjugation 'اعتديوا'. Moreover, Malik's translates "retaliate with the same force" - from the arabic 'فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ ' - which literally translated as "then attack (retaliate) upon him like he attacked upon you" - noting that both singulars "him" (the pronoun 'ه' after 'علي) and "he" (the third person singular conjugation of the verb اعْتَدَىٰ) - are expressed explicitly.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Also, can you explain why you use verse 2:193 as a reference to a just war doctrine of self defence:

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Then insist that the very next verse means something entirely different when it talks about fighting?

I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare. Though it is clearly in specific reference to 'one on one' assaults - it makes no sense to insist there must be different rules for warfare. As for the proportionality issue, its pretty obvious where you are going with this - that Muhammad was so sinister he was at pains to make it clear that proportionality mustn't be seen as a general rule by specifying only one circumstance in which it should be used. Thereby implying that outside of that circumstance it can (and should) be carte blanche. Where this meme falls down of course is the fact that warfare is clearly and unambiguously specified as self defence only - several times, and that muslims must stop fighting if a) attacks against them cease or b) the enemy inclines towards peace.

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Mattyfisk

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #356 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:53pm

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2018 at 12:41pm:

Muhamamd does not limit warfare in general to the standard of self defence or proportional response. But he does know how to talk about the concepts of self defence and proportionality, plainly and clearly, and he does so in the Quran. Just not in any of the verses Gandalf has been citing. Because to quote them would leave no doubt as to the absurdity of Gandalf's lies.

FD? You're not answering again.

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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #357 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:54pm

Quote:

I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare.

Do you agree that 2:194 establishes a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality during the holy months?

What is the purpose of applying the same standards to civil disputes during the holy months?

Also, is this really your way of conceding 2:194 does cover warfare? Were you trying to misrepresent your own opinion here?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

"whoever has assaulted you"
"assault him in the same way"

Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?

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Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #358 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:56pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:47pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:40pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

My point is that Gandalf lied about verse 2:194 by claiming it was not about warfare. He told this lie because conceding that it is in fact about warfare makes a mockery of his efforts to build a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality around other verses.

What do you think?

So, it's about warfare. I agree. Proportionality is very rarely conducted in war. Just because his actions were always proportional, doesn't mean that it wasn't self-defence.

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Read the verse - it clearly and unambiguously (save for Gandalf's lies that it is about street brawls) establishes what Gandalf has been trying to twist other verses into - a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Only problem for Gandalf is that it limits this doctrine to the holy months. As the other verses say, fighting is prescribed outside the holy months, kill the mushriken wherever you find them, etc

2:194 During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe God and know that God is with the righteous.

The 2:194 verse and surrounding verses must be read together. The 'kill them wherever you find them....' is in response to an earlier ayat about 'fight those who fight you....' clearly indicating self-defence.

Specifically, it says if a person assaults you, then assault them back. What's wrong with that?

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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #359 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:58pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:47pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:40pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:36pm:

My point is that Gandalf lied about verse 2:194 by claiming it was not about warfare. He told this lie because conceding that it is in fact about warfare makes a mockery of his efforts to build a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality around other verses.

What do you think?

So, it's about warfare. I agree. Proportionality is very rarely conducted in war. Just because his actions were always proportional, doesn't mean that it wasn't self-defence.

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Read the verse - it clearly and unambiguously (save for Gandalf's lies that it is about street brawls) establishes what Gandalf has been trying to twist other verses into - a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Only problem for Gandalf is that it limits this doctrine to the holy months. As the other verses say, fighting is prescribed outside the holy months, kill the mushriken wherever you find them, etc

2:194 During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe God and know that God is with the righteous.

The 2:194 verse and surrounding verses must be read together. The 'kill them wherever you find them....' is in response to an earlier ayat about 'fight those who fight you....' clearly indicating self-defence.

Yes Augie. Read them all. Here it is again for you:

Read the verse - it clearly and unambiguously (save for Gandalf's lies that it is about street brawls) establishes what Gandalf has been trying to twist other verses into - a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality. Only problem for Gandalf is that it limits this doctrine to the holy months. As the other verses say, fighting is prescribed outside the holy months, kill the mushriken wherever you find them, etc

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