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Racism is real, race is not (Read 14600 times)
Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #15 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:44pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


Those in the Darwinist camps have been talking about this false dichotomy for decades. The post-structuralists pushed the debate so far in the direction of the social, the biological got lost and was dismissed in the process.
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Agnes
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #16 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:45pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:40pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 3:49pm:
I think Gandalf once tried to argue that he could not possibly be racist because races do not exist.



Because you give such reliable recounts of people's actual arguments?

already trashing your own thread - make it personal why don't you- all over the place even up the walls-
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mothra
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #17 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:45pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:44pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


Those in the Darwinist camps have been talking about this false dichotomy for decades. The post-structuralists pushed the debate so far in the direction of the social, the biological got lost and was dismissed in the process.


Oh? What is "the biological", Mistie?
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #18 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:49pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:45pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:44pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


Those in the Darwinist camps have been talking about this false dichotomy for decades. The post-structuralists pushed the debate so far in the direction of the social, the biological got lost and was dismissed in the process.


Oh? What is "the biological", Mistie?


Strictly speaking, it is the study of living organisms.
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mothra
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #19 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:50pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:49pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:45pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:44pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


Those in the Darwinist camps have been talking about this false dichotomy for decades. The post-structuralists pushed the debate so far in the direction of the social, the biological got lost and was dismissed in the process.


Oh? What is "the biological", Mistie?


Strictly speaking, it is the study of living organisms.


So, you're saying they stopped studying people as living beings?

Or did you perhaps mean something else?
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #20 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:57pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 6:00pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:21pm:

Obviously an indiginous person.



yes
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #21 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:01pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:49pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:45pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:44pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


Those in the Darwinist camps have been talking about this false dichotomy for decades. The post-structuralists pushed the debate so far in the direction of the social, the biological got lost and was dismissed in the process.


Oh? What is "the biological", Mistie?


Strictly speaking, it is the study of living organisms.


So, you're saying they stopped studying people as living beings?

Or did you perhaps mean something else?


No. I said what I said: biology is the study of living organisms.
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mothra
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #22 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:01pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:49pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:45pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 7:44pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


Those in the Darwinist camps have been talking about this false dichotomy for decades. The post-structuralists pushed the debate so far in the direction of the social, the biological got lost and was dismissed in the process.


Oh? What is "the biological", Mistie?


Strictly speaking, it is the study of living organisms.


So, you're saying they stopped studying people as living beings?

Or did you perhaps mean something else?


No. I said what I said: biology is the study of living organisms.



So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #23 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:09pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm:
So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?


Almost all of it. Apart from Dawkins, biology plays no part in contemporary discussions on human behaviour. The current discussion revolves around power, 'oppression' and 'victims'. Additionally, the moral dimension of the discussion has almost totally taken over the 'what is' dimension.
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mothra
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #24 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:13pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:09pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm:
So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?


Almost all of it. Apart from Dawkins, biology plays no part in contemporary discussions on human behaviour. The current discussion revolves around power, 'oppression' and 'victims'. Additionally, the moral dimension of the discussion has almost totally taken over the 'what is' dimension.


You are either willfully dodging my question or you are incapable of taking obvious hints.

Mistie, what biological variations between humans with differing levels of melanin or other superficialities do you think are relevant enough to not be overlooked by modern academia?
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #25 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:17pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:13pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:09pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm:
So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?


Almost all of it. Apart from Dawkins, biology plays no part in contemporary discussions on human behaviour. The current discussion revolves around power, 'oppression' and 'victims'. Additionally, the moral dimension of the discussion has almost totally taken over the 'what is' dimension.


You are either willfully dodging my question or you are incapable of taking obvious hints.

Mistie, what biological variations between humans with differing levels of melanin or other superficialities do you think are relevant enough to not be overlooked by modern academia?


I am not dodging anything. I answered your question and now you've asked a new question, one that I will answer.

The discussion ought not to be on melanin, but on how the body's organs, cells etc. dictate how humans act. You're adding a moral dimension to the discussion before it's been clarified how the social and biological interact.
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mothra
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #26 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:20pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:13pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:09pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm:
So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?


Almost all of it. Apart from Dawkins, biology plays no part in contemporary discussions on human behaviour. The current discussion revolves around power, 'oppression' and 'victims'. Additionally, the moral dimension of the discussion has almost totally taken over the 'what is' dimension.


You are either willfully dodging my question or you are incapable of taking obvious hints.

Mistie, what biological variations between humans with differing levels of melanin or other superficialities do you think are relevant enough to not be overlooked by modern academia?


I am not dodging anything. I answered your question and now you've asked a new question, one that I will answer.

The discussion ought not to be on melanin, but on how the body's organs, cells etc. dictate how humans act. You're adding a moral dimension to the discussion before it's been clarified how the social and biological interact.




Ahh .. so option 2 it is.

But now Mistie, you still haven't answered my question. What of relevance is different between people with various levels of melanin or other superficial differences?
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Gnads
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #27 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:22pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:01pm:
Race does not exist

Not only is the redefinition of race as a social kind confusing, I argue that  race does not exist even as a social kind. Racism is real, in both an interpersonal and a structural sense, but race is not.

Once the idea of race is divorced from biology, strange things start happening, conceptually. What makes a group a “race”, if race is social, rather than biological?

We could say that races are just the groups that are labelled as races, but this doesn’t work. Just as witches are not women accused of being witches, races are not merely groups labelled as races. There has to be something more to the group for it to qualify as a social kind.

Nobody has put their finger on this “something more”. Some tie “race” to “essentialism”. Essentialism is the view that groups have essenses: fixed traits that all members of a group have, and which are unique to that group. “Social races”, on this view, are groups treated as if they have some unchangeable essence.

This move fails. While racialisation is often essentialising, it is not always. If you look at current “scientific” racism, you’ll see that it’s all about alleged inborn average differences between the so-called “races”, not racial essences (which does not make it any less horrid, or more plausible).

Moreover, essentialist thinking is not only applied to racialised groups. Gender is also essentialised, and so is ethnicity.

Remember when I said strange things start happening when race is defined socially? Well, if races are social groups subject to essentialism, we would have to accept that men and women constitute de facto races!

Let’s abandon “race”

We should abandon attempts to save the category of race. There is no good way to make sense of the category from a biological or a social perspective. There are no races, only groups misunderstood as races: racialised groups.

Racialised groups are not biological groups, in the sense that they are not biological races. Yet how you are racialised does depend on superficial biological characteristics, such as skin colour. That is to say, racialised groups have biological inclusion criteria, vague and arbitrary as they may be.

These biological inclusion criteria are determined by social factors. Philosophical debates about “race” have relied on a dichotomy between the biological and the social. However, this is a false dichotomy: the biological and the social interact.

In racialisation, the biological and the social interact with a number of other factors: administrative, cultural, economic, geographic, gendered, historical, lingual, phenomenological, political, psychological, religious, and so on. I call this view “interactive constructionism about racialised groups”.

The category of the “racialised group” can be of great value, politically. It offers a way for those who have historically been treated as members of “inferior races” to assert and defend themselves collectively, while distancing themselves from the negative and misleading associations of the term “race”. “Race” is not needed for purposes of social justice.

According to researcher Victoria Grieves in her article Culture, not colour, is the heart of Aboriginal identity,

Being of Aboriginal descent is crucial because this is our link to country and the natural world. But at the same time, Aboriginal people do not rely on a race-based identity … continuing cultural values and practice are the true basis of Aboriginal identity in the whole of Australia today
The category of race is not needed for cultural identity or political action.


We need to be talking about racism, racialisation, and racialised groups, not “race”. Given that “race” fails as both a biological and a social category, let’s consign it to the dustbin of history’s bad ideas.


https://theconversation.com/racism-is-real-race-is-not-a-philosophers-perspectiv...


What a load of bollocks.
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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais
 
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #28 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:24pm
 
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:13pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:09pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm:
So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?


Almost all of it. Apart from Dawkins, biology plays no part in contemporary discussions on human behaviour. The current discussion revolves around power, 'oppression' and 'victims'. Additionally, the moral dimension of the discussion has almost totally taken over the 'what is' dimension.


You are either willfully dodging my question or you are incapable of taking obvious hints.

Mistie, what biological variations between humans with differing levels of melanin or other superficialities do you think are relevant enough to not be overlooked by modern academia?


I am not dodging anything. I answered your question and now you've asked a new question, one that I will answer.

The discussion ought not to be on melanin, but on how the body's organs, cells etc. dictate how humans act. You're adding a moral dimension to the discussion before it's been clarified how the social and biological interact.




Ahh .. so option 2 it is.

But now Mistie, you still haven't answered my question. What of relevance is different between people with various levels of melanin or other superficial differences?


I did answer it.
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mothra
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Re: Racism is real, race is not
Reply #29 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:28pm
 
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:24pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:20pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:17pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:13pm:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:09pm:
mothra wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 8:03pm:
So what biological factors do you think have been overlooked in the current clime?


Almost all of it. Apart from Dawkins, biology plays no part in contemporary discussions on human behaviour. The current discussion revolves around power, 'oppression' and 'victims'. Additionally, the moral dimension of the discussion has almost totally taken over the 'what is' dimension.


You are either willfully dodging my question or you are incapable of taking obvious hints.

Mistie, what biological variations between humans with differing levels of melanin or other superficialities do you think are relevant enough to not be overlooked by modern academia?


I am not dodging anything. I answered your question and now you've asked a new question, one that I will answer.

The discussion ought not to be on melanin, but on how the body's organs, cells etc. dictate how humans act. You're adding a moral dimension to the discussion before it's been clarified how the social and biological interact.




Ahh .. so option 2 it is.

But now Mistie, you still haven't answered my question. What of relevance is different between people with various levels of melanin or other superficial differences?


I did answer it.



So, "organs and cells" are different in people with varied levels of melanin and other superficial differences. Is that what you're saying?

And those "organs and cell" would "dictate how people act"?

Have you noticed differences in "how people act" according to their superficial characteristics on even playing fields?
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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.
 
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