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How does the Greenhouse effect work? (Read 6602 times)
Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #60 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:38pm
 
Ahahahahaha Cpl Lees accepts AGW but still looks for stuff to denigrate it.

Harries: less IR reaching space
Feldman: more IR redirected back to the surface.

That seems pretty good.

Yes, weather and climate and its measurement is complicated, but the theory of AGW is sound and is well supported by evidence.
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lee
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #61 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:18pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:38pm:
Ahahahahaha Cpl Lees accepts AGW but still looks for stuff to denigrate it.



Nope. I'm waiting for you to QUANTIFY it. Wink

So you didn't find the reference for where the IR photon is "trapped"?
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #62 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:57pm
 
Do try not reaching Booby levels of stupidity Lees.
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Grendel
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #63 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:59pm
 
Grendel wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 3:41pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
Back on ignore roach goes.

Won't help you I'll still post facts.
IPCC the Pause or Hiatus.
The IPCC
1 Recognise the pause is real
2 Admit their models never predicted it
3 State that the movement in temperatures during it are STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT.


Ignore the FACTS all you like Monk, it just shows how much credibility YOU lack.

Oh and another reason YOU should never Mod... is because you'll have everyone on ignore. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

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lee
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #64 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:05pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 8:57pm:
Do try not reaching Booby levels of stupidity Lees.


You do understand "quantify"? For instance  - You take a temperature reading and parse it into its component parts. Natural Variation and AGW. You need at least one to quantify the other. A = B + C. C = A - B? Wink
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #65 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:27pm
 
And when I post such a treatment—you will pick fault with some irrelevant passage just so you don’t have to deal with the conclusions reached.

We see temperatures and sea levels rising. We see measurements of IR supporting the AGW theory.
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?le. In other w
Reply #66 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:50pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:27pm:
And when I post such a treatment—you will pick fault



Well try to post relevant stuff, not your imaginings.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 28th, 2017 at 9:27pm:
We see temperatures and sea levels rising.


We don't see sea levels rising in the tide data. Why not?

We see temperatures rising. They are now using smaller Stevenson Screens which put a warming bias of 0.54ºC in the temperature "data" (averaged over the year). We see homogenisation where they can adjust temperatures up to 250Km2. The adjustments have to rely on "expert judgment". As such the adjustments are not replicable and therefore not science.

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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #67 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:27am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:40am:
There is no doubt at all that the “Greenhouse Effect” is operating.

Feldman and others measured infrared radiation that was reflected in the atmosphere by greenhouse gas molecules and sent back to the surface. This was measured over some years and after adjusting to remove the effect of water vapor (also a greenhouse gas (GHG)) showed the relationship between CO2 concentration and the amount of IR sent back to the surface on the north slope of Alaska (NSA:)

https://skepticalscience.com//pics/FeldmanGrowingRF.png

Notice there was a number of years of observations during the course of which CO2 concentration increased. Within each year we have the carbon cycle changing the CO2 content in the atmosphere. What is measured is not temperature but the amount of infrared. Since we know CO2 is a GHG what we see is not correlation = causation as roach keeps tiresomely crapping on about, it is cause and effect: increase GHGs you increase IR received back at the earth.

It will come as no surprise that spectrometers on satellites detect decreasing amounts of IR at the spectral locations in the IR band relating to each GHG: more IR cannot leave the earth, warming it.

This graph, incidentally, shows JoNova lied saying only the first 20% of CO2 caused warming.  JoNova and all professional AGW deniers are frauds.

Alright, let us look at the radiation that comes in (overwhelmingly from the sun) and what is radiated back by earth as part of the process of cooling by the surface of the planet.

Quote:
The electromagnetic spectrum covers a wavelength range of about 24 orders of magnitude, from the shortest, most energetic, high frequency gamma rays to the longest, very low energy, low frequency radio waves). The range of interest for climate science and atmospheric warming is approximately in the middle of this spectrum from about 0.1 to 100 μm (10
–1
to 10
2
μm). This includes the visible region of the spectrum (0.4 to 0.7 μm) and the adjacent higher energy (shorter wavelength) near ultraviolet (UV) and lower energy (longer wavelength) infrared (IR), including much of the “thermal infrared”. Incoming solar radiation is in the shorter wavelength (higher energy) part of this range from UV through near IR, between about 0.1 to 4 μm. Radiation from the warmed Earth is mainly in the thermal IR region between 4 and 30 μm.


OK, let us look at this again:
Quote:
Incoming solar radiation is. . .in near IR, between about 0.1 to 4 μm. Radiation from the warmed Earth is mainly in the thermal IR region between 4 and 30 μm.


The higher energy part of the solar radiation, visible light, some UV etc, warms the earth, exciting the molecules forming the surface. This sees IR, infrared or heat if you like, being radiated by the molecules making up the surface, the soil, rocks, water, manmade structures etc.

So, how does this IR emanating from the surface and heading away from it get reflected back to the surface?

Quote:
Molecular vibrations and some energetic rotations have energy level spacings that correspond to energies in the IR region of the electromagnetic spectrum (most rotations are in the microwave range which runs between thermal IR and radio wavelengths). Thus IR radiation absorbed by molecules causes increased vibration. Collisions between these energized molecules and others in the sample transfer energy among all the molecules, which increases the average thermal energy and, hence, raises the temperature. Conversely, molecules that emit IR radiation lose their vibrational energy and their collisions with other molecules decrease the average thermal energy and lower the temperature.


So GHG molecules can absorb IR causing the molecules to speed up, which is heat. When they lose the IR, re-emit it, they go back to the previous lower energy state (sounding a bit like silly Aqua here  Grin ) So how does this happen.

Quote:
All molecules have positive (nuclei) and negative (electron clouds) regions, A molecule is dipolar and has a permanent dipole moment, if the averaged centers of its positively and negatively charged regions do not coincide. If a vibrational motion of the molecule disturbs these averages, its dipole moment can change and an appropriate energy of IR radiation can be absorbed to cause this molecular vibration.


Molecules of oxygen and nitrogen, which make up most of the atmosphere, have a more or less uniform density of electrons around them and are not GHGs. It is what deniers call “trace gases”  Smiley that are the GHGs and they have three of more atoms in each molecule: water vapor H2O, carbon dioxide CO2, CH4 (methane) and N2O (nitrous oxide) plus CFCs we put there and ozone (O3.)

A GHG molecule as we have seen has parts of the molecule with a lower density of electrons (the H2 of H2O) and a somewhat positive charge while other parts have a higher electron density and a somewhat negative charge. So we have positive and negative areas, bipoles. We can write CO2 as OCO and see the molecule has two dipoles. CH4 has four such dipoles.

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/greenhousegases/properties/jcr...

Let us have a look at water vapor:
Cont’d

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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #68 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:27am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:40am:
Quote:
The atmosphere is, of course, actually “wet” and may contain several percent water vapor, as well as liquid and solid water in clouds, from the natural water cycle (evaporation-condensation-precipitation). Water vapor also has strong absorptions in the IR, as shown in the schematic diagram. The majority of atmospheric warming is due to these absorptions by water vapor that occur at both ends of the thermal IR region.

Note that there is a “window” in the water vapor spectrum from about 8 to 15 μm where there is little IR absorption and hence little contribution to atmospheric warming. The strong absorption by CO2 at the long wavelength end of this region narrows this window a bit and adds to the warming effect. Radiation from the Earth that is in this window region passes through the atmosphere with little absorption and contributes little to atmospheric warming. Other gases that absorb in this window region or in other narrower window regions of the thermal IR (where water vapor and CO2 do not absorb appreciably) can make significant relative contributions to atmospheric warming by absorbing energy that would otherwise be lost to space.


So even gases in even tinier concentrations than CO2 can have “significant . . . contributions to atmospheric warming. . . .” Trace gases matter!

We can measure the gradual increase in the atmosphere of CO2, CH4 and N2O (the CFCs will be there a loooong time but at least are not being added to much anymore) but water vapor changes from vapor to liquid and the liquid part may precipitate out as rain, hail or snow. So AGW science concentrates on the non–condensing GHGs, the CO2 etc.

So the GHG molecules can absorb IR, be excited and spin more rapidly etc then re-emit this IR photon. When it re-emits the IR it can emit it in any direction and will emit it downwards as readily as upwards. That is how GHGs cause the globe to warm. We put the extra CO2 into the atmosphere as isotopic analysis shows, hence the warming is anthropogenic, AGW.

Read up more of the science of GHGs:
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/greenhousegases/properties.htm...

Ah, yes, temperature. From the above link we get:
Quote:
Temperature is a measure of the average energy of molecular motion in a sample of matter: to and fro translation, intramolecular vibration (and lattice vibration in solids), and rotation (both entire molecules and intramolecular portions). The sum of these motions’ energies can be described as the “thermal energy” of the sample. Thermal energy and, hence, temperature can change as various forms of energy, including electromagnetic (light/photons), interact with the sample and change the average energy of motion.


We remember that IR is absorbed by GHGs and that this excites them meaning they move faster, spin faster etc and impart some of the motion with neighboring molecules they bump into. So we expect the lower atmosphere to be warmer and the upper atmosphere, stripped of a lot of IR that would otherwise be passing through it be cooler if AGW theory is correct. That is just what we do find. AGW theory is sound, well supported by evidence.


We have moved well away from the subject of the thread.
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #69 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:22pm
 
Grendel wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:34am:
We all know about the Greenhouse Effect.

We all know without it there would be no life as we know it.

It's a good thing,


That's right, if it wasn't for those greenhouse gasses in our atmosphere the earth would be too cold to sustain life. Every night it would drop to below -170 degrees C like it does on Mercury.

So what do you think would happen if we started to increase the concentrations of those greenhouse gasses?
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #70 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:27pm
 
Correlation = Causation, that is likely what roach will reply.

Oh—and Australia has droughts and flooding rains, apparently.
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #71 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:27pm:
Correlation = Causation, that is likely what roach will reply.

Oh—and Australia has droughts and flooding rains, apparently.

Not that you'd know...
and you do believe in the former. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

oh and for barnacle Bill...  Earth's Climate Systems are much more complicated than CO2. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #72 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:34pm
 
I have never once said or implied that correlation = causation to “prove” AGW.

I have a feeling you glanced at a graph (the Feldman one I reckon) didn’t look at it carefully and jumped to that conclusion.

Then you just repeat it ad infinitum so you don’t have to engage in real discussion.
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #73 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 6:45pm
 
"This article explores the "Greenhouse Effect" in contemporary literature and in the frame of physics, finding a conspicuous lack of clear thermodynamic definition. The "Greenhouse Effect" is defined by Arrhenius' (1896) modification of Pouillet's backradiation idea so that instead of being an explanation of how a thermal gradient is maintained at thermal equilibrium, Arrhenius' incarnation of the backradiation hypothesis offered an extra source of power in addition to the thermally conducted heat which produces the thermal gradient in the material. The general idea as expressed in contemporary literature, though seemingly chaotic in its diversity of emphasis, shows little change since its revision by Svante Arrhenius in 1896, and subsequent refutation by Robert Wood in 1909. The "Greenhouse Effect" is presented as a radiation trap whereby changes in atmospheric composition resulting in increased absorption lead to increased surface temperatures. However, since the composition of a body, isolated from thermal contact by a vacuum, cannot affect mean body temperature, the "Greenhouse Effect" has, in fact, no material foundation. Compositional variation can change the distribution of heat within a body in accordance with Fourier's Law, but it cannot change the overall temperature of the body. Arrhenius' Backradiation mechanism did, in fact, duplicate the radiative heat transfer component by adding this component to the conductive heat flow between the earth's surface and the atmosphere, when thermal conduction includes both contact and radiative modes of heat transfer between bodies in thermal contact. Moreover, the temperature of the earth's surface and the temperature in a greenhouse are adequately explained by elementary physics. Consequently, the dubious explanation presented by the "Greenhouse Effect" hypothesis is an unnecessary complication. Furthermore, this hypothesis has neither direct experimental confirmation nor direct empirical evidence of a material nature. Thus the notion of "Anthropogenic Global Warming", which rests on the "Greenhouse Effect", also has no real foundation."

http://greenhouse.geologist-1011.net/

Timothy Casey B.Sc. (Hons.)
Consulting Geologist

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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #74 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 7:03pm
 
That was good for a giggle.

Cites Plimer  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Does not mention Harries or Feldman and similar.

Rubbish!
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