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How does the Greenhouse effect work? (Read 6568 times)
Jovial Monk
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How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:40am
 
There is no doubt at all that the “Greenhouse Effect” is operating.

Feldman and others measured infrared radiation that was reflected in the atmosphere by greenhouse gas molecules and sent back to the surface. This was measured over some years and after adjusting to remove the effect of water vapor (also a greenhouse gas (GHG)) showed the relationship between CO2 concentration and the amount of IR sent back to the surface on the north slope of Alaska (NSA:)

...

Notice there was a number of years of observations during the course of which CO2 concentration increased. Within each year we have the carbon cycle changing the CO2 content in the atmosphere. What is measured is not temperature but the amount of infrared. Since we know CO2 is a GHG what we see is not correlation = causation as roach keeps tiresomely crapping on about, it is cause and effect: increase GHGs you increase IR received back at the earth.

It will come as no surprise that spectrometers on satellites detect decreasing amounts of IR at the spectral locations in the IR band relating to each GHG: more IR cannot leave the earth, warming it.

This graph, incidentally, shows JoNova lied saying only the first 20% of CO2 caused warming.  JoNova and all professional AGW deniers are frauds.

Alright, let us look at the radiation that comes in (overwhelmingly from the sun) and what is radiated back by earth as part of the process of cooling by the surface of the planet.

Quote:
The electromagnetic spectrum covers a wavelength range of about 24 orders of magnitude, from the shortest, most energetic, high frequency gamma rays to the longest, very low energy, low frequency radio waves). The range of interest for climate science and atmospheric warming is approximately in the middle of this spectrum from about 0.1 to 100 μm (10
–1
to 10
2
μm). This includes the visible region of the spectrum (0.4 to 0.7 μm) and the adjacent higher energy (shorter wavelength) near ultraviolet (UV) and lower energy (longer wavelength) infrared (IR), including much of the “thermal infrared”. Incoming solar radiation is in the shorter wavelength (higher energy) part of this range from UV through near IR, between about 0.1 to 4 μm. Radiation from the warmed Earth is mainly in the thermal IR region between 4 and 30 μm.


OK, let us look at this again:
Quote:
Incoming solar radiation is. . .in near IR, between about 0.1 to 4 μm. Radiation from the warmed Earth is mainly in the thermal IR region between 4 and 30 μm.


The higher energy part of the solar radiation, visible light, some UV etc, warms the earth, exciting the molecules forming the surface. This sees IR, infrared or heat if you like, being radiated by the molecules making up the surface, the soil, rocks, water, manmade structures etc.

So, how does this IR emanating from the surface and heading away from it get reflected back to the surface?

Quote:
Molecular vibrations and some energetic rotations have energy level spacings that correspond to energies in the IR region of the electromagnetic spectrum (most rotations are in the microwave range which runs between thermal IR and radio wavelengths). Thus IR radiation absorbed by molecules causes increased vibration. Collisions between these energized molecules and others in the sample transfer energy among all the molecules, which increases the average thermal energy and, hence, raises the temperature. Conversely, molecules that emit IR radiation lose their vibrational energy and their collisions with other molecules decrease the average thermal energy and lower the temperature.


So GHG molecules can absorb IR causing the molecules to speed up, which is heat. When they lose the IR, re-emit it, they go back to the previous lower energy state (sounding a bit like silly Aqua here  Grin ) So how does this happen.

Quote:
All molecules have positive (nuclei) and negative (electron clouds) regions, A molecule is dipolar and has a permanent dipole moment, if the averaged centers of its positively and negatively charged regions do not coincide. If a vibrational motion of the molecule disturbs these averages, its dipole moment can change and an appropriate energy of IR radiation can be absorbed to cause this molecular vibration.


Molecules of oxygen and nitrogen, which make up most of the atmosphere, have a more or less uniform density of electrons around them and are not GHGs. It is what deniers call “trace gases”  Smiley that are the GHGs and they have three of more atoms in each molecule: water vapor H2O, carbon dioxide CO2, CH4 (methane) and N2O (nitrous oxide) plus CFCs we put there and ozone (O3.)

A GHG molecule as we have seen has parts of the molecule with a lower density of electrons (the H2 of H2O) and a somewhat positive charge while other parts have a higher electron density and a somewhat negative charge. So we have positive and negative areas, bipoles. We can write CO2 as OCO and see the molecule has two dipoles. CH4 has four such dipoles.

...

Let us have a look at water vapor:
Cont’d
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:27am by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #1 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:40am
 
Quote:
The atmosphere is, of course, actually “wet” and may contain several percent water vapor, as well as liquid and solid water in clouds, from the natural water cycle (evaporation-condensation-precipitation). Water vapor also has strong absorptions in the IR, as shown in the schematic diagram. The majority of atmospheric warming is due to these absorptions by water vapor that occur at both ends of the thermal IR region.

Note that there is a “window” in the water vapor spectrum from about 8 to 15 μm where there is little IR absorption and hence little contribution to atmospheric warming. The strong absorption by CO2 at the long wavelength end of this region narrows this window a bit and adds to the warming effect. Radiation from the Earth that is in this window region passes through the atmosphere with little absorption and contributes little to atmospheric warming. Other gases that absorb in this window region or in other narrower window regions of the thermal IR (where water vapor and CO2 do not absorb appreciably) can make significant relative contributions to atmospheric warming by absorbing energy that would otherwise be lost to space.


So even gases in even tinier concentrations than CO2 can have “significant . . . contributions to atmospheric warming. . . .” Trace gases matter!

We can measure the gradual increase in the atmosphere of CO2, CH4 and N2O (the CFCs will be there a loooong time but at least are not being added to much anymore) but water vapor changes from vapor to liquid and the liquid part may precipitate out as rain, hail or snow. So AGW science concentrates on the non–condensing GHGs, the CO2 etc.

So the GHG molecules can absorb IR, be excited and spin more rapidly etc then re-emit this IR photon. When it re-emits the IR it can emit it in any direction and will emit it downwards as readily as upwards. That is how GHGs cause the globe to warm. We put the extra CO2 into the atmosphere as isotopic analysis shows, hence the warming is anthropogenic, AGW.

Read up more of the science of GHGs:
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/greenhousegases/properties.htm...

Ah, yes, temperature. From the above link we get:
Quote:
Temperature is a measure of the average energy of molecular motion in a sample of matter: to and fro translation, intramolecular vibration (and lattice vibration in solids), and rotation (both entire molecules and intramolecular portions). The sum of these motions’ energies can be described as the “thermal energy” of the sample. Thermal energy and, hence, temperature can change as various forms of energy, including electromagnetic (light/photons), interact with the sample and change the average energy of motion.


We remember that IR is absorbed by GHGs and that this excites them meaning they move faster, spin faster etc and impart some of the motion with neighboring molecules they bump into. So we expect the lower atmosphere to be warmer and the upper atmosphere, stripped of a lot of IR that would otherwise be passing through it be cooler if AGW theory is correct. That is just what we do find. AGW theory is sound, well supported by evidence.
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:01am by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #2 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:41am
 
A study by Harries et al using a satellite based spectrometer to measure IR reaching near space from the surface. The chart below shows a decrease in black body temperature over time as GHG concentrations increase. This means it measures decreases in the amounts of IR reaching space:

...

We see CO2 and methane as the main GHGs. There is another GHG, nitrous oxide, N2O, that is starting to accumulate in the atmosphere: nitrous oxide has 300 times more GHG power than CO2. Methane is 30 times more powerful than CO2 as a GHG.


So we see that the AGW theory has the evidence to support it: the structure of the GHG molecules and that it has energy states corresponding to thermal energy limes in the IR spectrum. This is all stuff that can be determined in the lab.

AGW theory is supported by measurements in the field and in space showing that more thermal IR is trapped on the surface and lower atmosphere and less thermal IR is radiated to space. This causes the warming that we have seen.
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:41am by Jovial Monk »  

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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #3 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:34am
 
Wocka Wocka Wocka  more
WAD
eh Monk.
How many times will you repost this crap?
We all know about the Greenhouse Effect.

We all know without it there would be no life as we know it.

It's a good thing, YOU need to recognise that fact and stop conflating it with Catastrophic Warming for a change.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #4 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:43am
 
And indeed the world is warming:

...

This warming is due to the greenhouse effect as described above, not as you might think due to the sun getting warmer:

...

Quote:
Figure 1. Approximately two and a half solar cycles of Total Solar Irradiance (TSI), also called 'solar constant', in power (watts) per square meter. These annual, average TSI measurements were compiled by the Active Cavity Radiometer Irradiance Monitor (ACRIM), the Physikalisch-Meteorologisches Observatorium / World Radiation Center (PMOD), and the Royal Meteorological Institute of Belgium (RMIB).


Diagram from: http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/effect-of-sun-o...
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:51am by Jovial Monk »  

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lee
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #5 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 12:06pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:41am:
The chart below shows a decrease in black body temperature over time as GHG concentrations increase.


Now you remember telling us about the "small" IR window in which these GHG's occur?

Wavenumber (which is not the same as wavelength, as previously described by you), is from 600 to approximately 1300.

According to https://www.ape-berlin.de/en/page/calculator

A wavenumber of 600 is equivalent to 17987547.48 MHz (about 18,000GHz)
A wavenumber of 1300 is equivalent to 38973019.54 MHz (about 39,000GHz)

That is really a small window NOT.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:41am:
This is all stuff that can be determined in the lab.



And the world's atmosphere is not a lab. Wink
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #6 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 12:11pm
 
...

The whole IR band is but a small window.

Requoting from my post above:

Quote:
Note that there is a “window” in the water vapor spectrum from about 8 to 15 μm where there is little IR absorption and hence little contribution to atmospheric warming. The strong absorption by CO2 at the long wavelength end of this region narrows this window a bit and adds to the warming effect


8 to 15 µm is the window left by water vapor.
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« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2017 at 12:25pm by Jovial Monk »  

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lee
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #7 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 12:11pm:
8 to 15 µm is the window left by water vapor.



Oh Only 18GHz wide. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You have managed to shrink the window by about a whole 3GHz. Wink
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #8 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:15pm
 
It is not a large window.

You are the only person I know of to say it is a large window. Keep going with that.
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lee
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #9 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:18pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:15pm:
It is not a large window.

You are the only person I know of to say it is a large window. Keep going with that.


It is claimed it is not a large window. Have they verified it is "not a large window"? What parameters did they use to define window size? Wink
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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #10 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:19pm
 
Just keep saying “large window” and all will be fine  Wink
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lee
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #11 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:14pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:19pm:
Just keep saying “large window” and all will be fine  Wink


Or you small window and you can crap your pants some more.
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #12 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:41pm
 
Hello again Monk.

I found a shortcut for you....

Just post...
Quote:
There is no doubt at all that the “Greenhouse Effect” is operating.

Because we all agree on that and all know how it works FFS.
Wan't me to start posting pretty pictures about it for you again? Cheesy
Grendel wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:34am:
Wocka Wocka Wocka  more
WAD
eh Monk.
How many times will you repost this crap?
We all know about the Greenhouse Effect.

We all know without it there would be no life as we know it.

It's a good thing, YOU need to recognise that fact and stop conflating it with Catastrophic Warming for a change.

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Jovial Monk
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #13 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 11:28pm
 
How the Greenhouse Effect works is explained.

That it is causing warming cannot be denied, except by cowards, idiots and the like.

In the Ice Watch thread is a 10 minute video in which a scientist working in the fields of glaciers, ice sheets and so on describes how AGW is destabilising two of he world’s largest ice sheets, Greenland and West Antarctica.

He speaks calmly, factually and I strongly urge members here to watch it.
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Moriaty
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Re: How does the Greenhouse effect work?
Reply #14 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 11:50pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 1:00pm:
Oh Only 18GHz wide. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


I read your posts and it is clear you find the GHz thing very impressive. But a big number does not necessarily mean a big result.

ahhh you know what, wallow in your ignorance. Maybe one day you'll enrol in an adult course at TAFE to do basic physics.

There is no way I, or anyone else can teach you Uni level knowledge via a web forum...  Sad
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