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Action on AGW, is it enough? (Read 8868 times)
Emma
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #225 - Jul 16th, 2017 at 12:19am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 11:04am:
The temperature data shows the warming, the spectroscopy data explains it.

I take what action I personally can: planting trees, building a strawbale house, not buying a huge SUV but an economical sedan and walking to any location under 5Km away.

But the BIG action has to come from the political sphere and that is beginning.

So for the science—no appeal to authority at all, roach.


Me too.
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live every day
 
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Grendel
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #226 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:41pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:08pm:
The big question is, just how many of us are going to tell Monk the same things over and over again before he actually acknowledges that facts?

My guess is he will never become rational or apologise, or accept the facts. Roll Eyes

LOL
You have no idea what the Null Hypothesis is Monk.
you are a liar and a fraud.
Back to rock hunting with you. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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TheFunPolice
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #227 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:45pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:41pm:
Grendel wrote on Jul 15th, 2017 at 7:08pm:
The big question is, just how many of us are going to tell Monk the same things over and over again before he actually acknowledges that facts?

My guess is he will never become rational or apologise, or accept the facts. Roll Eyes

LOL
You have no idea what the Null Hypothesis is Monk.
you are a liar and a fraud.
Back to rock hunting with you. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Grendel knows nothing!

Go copper Internet in the country that actually built the asian century I say!

The parents take the paper profits and the kids can chew it: that's called business acumen in modern Australai folks  Grin
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #228 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:53pm
 
The null hypothesis is the mathematical relationship that holds if the theory being tested is false. So for AGW we first look if the globe is warming.

AGW is the theory, so the alternate hypothesis has to be:

H1: temperatures are increasing.

To test this we work out a null hypothesis, one that holds if the theory is null. The null hypothesis thus must be testable and falsifiable. For AGW the null hypothesis must be:

H0: temperatures are stable.

We need a test, a statistical test. We could try correlation/regression etc but I propose Chi Squared, monthly global temperatures from 1850–2017. We do this, we find temperatures are not stable so we reject the null hypothesis. Looking at the data we see temperatures have actually increased. We therefore accept the alternate hypothesis.

Don’t believe me? Try this definition of the null hypothesis:
Quote:
The null hypothesis is essentially the "devil's advocate" position. That is, it assumes that whatever you are trying to prove did not happen (hint: it usually states that something equals zero). For example, the two different teaching methods did not result in different exam performances (i.e., zero difference). Another example might be that there is no relationship between anxiety and athletic performance (i.e., the slope is zero). The alternative hypothesis states the opposite and is usually the hypothesis you are trying to prove (e.g., the two different teaching methods did result in different exam performances). Initially, you can state these hypotheses in more general terms (e.g., using terms like "effect", "relationship", etc.), as shown below for the teaching methods example:


https://statistics.laerd.com/statistical-guides/hypothesis-testing-3.php

This is the
THIRD
definition of the null hypothesis I have posted. All three definitions are congruent.

You fools can apologise to me any time you like.
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lee
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #229 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 2:09pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:53pm:
AGW is the theory,



Really?

You have posted AGW is NOT the null hypothesis. If it is not the null hypothesis then it has to be an alternate.

Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 9:16pm:
AGW is NOT the null hypothesis!


Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:53pm:
This is the THIRD
definition of the null hypothesis I have posted. All three definitions are congruent.


So which is the null hypothesis? AGW or natural variation?

You are twisting yourself in knots.



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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #230 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:57pm
 
AGW and your “Natural Variation” are theories.

Theories need to be tested. Testing means numbers, what numbers and how they relate to test the theory.

This is where hypothesis come in.

We develop a hypothesis, the alternate hypothesis, that applies if the theory is true. If we want to test if the globe is warming the hypothesis HAS to be that temperatures are increasing. Can’t be anything else, can it? The ‘W’ in AGW stands for Warming after all!

So:
H1: temperatures are rising.

Then we need to develop a hypothesis to test if the temperatures are rising. The null hypothesis, the hypothesis that would apply if the theory is wrong. If AGW isn’t a reality then temperatures are not rising, get it? So the null hypothesis we have to use is:

H0: temperatures are constant.

We do a test, Chi Square would be good but regression could also be done.

We have all seen the charts of temperature. We cannot accept the null hypothesis, we reject it, accept the alternative hypothesis and proceed to test the AGW theory further. We know the greenhouse potential of CO2, so we look at the greenhouse effect using spectrometry etc etc.

So, AGW is the theory, temperatures are constant is the null hypothesis.

Do you get it finally, lee?
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« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2017 at 4:39pm by Jovial Monk »  

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lee
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #231 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 5:49pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
temperatures are constant is the null hypothesis.



Can we have citation on that? or is it Jovial Monks AGW theory? Grin Grin Grin Grin

When have temperatures been constant; EVER?
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #232 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 5:54pm
 
It seems that finally my explanation of the null (theory is wrong) hypothesis has sunk in.

I would really like to see Loser Lees try and work out a way to test his “Natural Variation” hmmm not “theory” more “escape hatch to avoid acknowledging AGW.”

Theory: Temperatures increases are due to natural variation.

–mechanism: PDO/ENSO/desperation. . . . .

Alternate hypothesis (the one that is in accord with the theory: LOVE to see Loser Lees formulate a mechanism and alternative hypothesis. . . . . .????

Null hypothesis: some relationship that applies if the theory (Loser Lees’ “Natural Variation” thingy” is false.


We really need to see the “natural variation” thingy explained and the alternate and null hypothesis spelled out so it can be tested. Fascinating to imagine the mechanism of NV.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #233 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 5:56pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 5:49pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 3:57pm:
temperatures are constant is the null hypothesis.



Can we have citation on that? or is it Jovial Monks AGW theory? Grin Grin Grin Grin

When have temperatures been constant; EVER?


Can’t you understand what I explained? If we have AGW then the alternate hypothesis is temperatures are rising. To test that we derive the null hypothesis: temperatures are constant (± sampling error etc.)
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lee
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #234 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:00pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 5:56pm:
Can’t you understand what I explained?



Yes. Now give us the citation. You fraud.

Mr Winter to Summer is not climate. Can't even understand the WMO. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #235 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:02pm
 
I have posted THREE definitions of the null hypothesis.

If you don’t understand it by now then you are a brain damaged idiot.
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lee
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #236 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:08pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:02pm:
I have posted THREE definitions of the null hypothesis.



Yes and have managed to botch up whatever you write from there. Wink

Back to Trenberth -

"Past attribution studies of climate change have assumed a null hypothesis of no role of human activities. The challenge, then, is to prove that there is an anthropogenic component.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wcc.142/abstract

Trenberth pleading to overturn natural variation as the null hypothesis.

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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #237 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:15pm
 
OK, so you are too stupid or too desperate to understand what I am trying to say.

It is also abundantly clear that you have no theory, no matter how vague, to explain temperatures increasing, sea levels rising etc.

There is no longer any need to treat you as an adult, as a rational being. You are no better than Boobhead and The Moronic seeking to escape AGW by pretending we are in an ice age.

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lee
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #238 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:24pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:15pm:
OK, so you are too stupid or too desperate to understand what I am trying to say.



Actually, too rational. Your quotes are good. it is when you put your own spin on those quotes of null hypothesis that you go batshit crazy.

You have no quotes from anyone, even John Cook, confirming your version of the null hypothesis. Why do you think that is?
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Action on AGW, is it enough?
Reply #239 - Jul 18th, 2017 at 6:27pm
 
But the null hypothesis to test if temperatures are increasing because of AGW is that temperatures are stable.

You have
THREE
definitions of the null hypothesis.

What I say is correct.

Too bad you are too fvvcking stupid to understand!

Dropped on your head as a child once too often is my theory as to why you are too dense to understand a perfectly plain exposition of hypothesis testing.
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