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Ice watch (Read 21617 times)
Jovial Monk
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #405 - Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:21pm
 
Overall it is a clear trend of warming. Don’t see no natural variation—natural variation is just an excuse deniers like Lees, roach, Gregg come up with.

They will never name any possible force causing natural variation because there aren’t any that explain a trend of over 150 years of warming.

Natural variation sources:

1. Pacific Decadal Oscillation, same for Atlantic, Arctic etc.

2. ENSO, El Nino/La Nina

3. Volcanoes—spew out aerosols into the upper atmosphere that reflect sunlight back into space, cooling the earth.

But the real reason for the warming we see has been known for over 100 years:

Arrhenius in 1906 wrote:
Quote:
In a similar way, I calculate that a reduction in the amount of CO2 by half, or a gain to twice the amount, would cause a temperature change of – 1.5 degrees C, or + 1.6 degrees C, respectively.

In these calculations, I completely neglected the presence of water vapour emitted into
the atmosphere. This acts in two ways: In part, the water vapour reduces the radiation in
the same way as does the CO2, whereby the absorption of CO2 comprises a larger fraction
of the earth’s radiation then if the water vapour would be removed from the atmosphere.
In part, the temperature causes an increase in water vapour emitted into the atmosphere, on account of an increase in the quantity of CO2, with the subsequent rise in temperature.

To estimate these two influences, one has to envisage the heat absorption of water vapour,
both in respect to the Earth’s radiation, as well as with respect to solar radiation.

We know far less about the heat absorption by water vapour than we know about heat
absorption by CO2. Ekholm has researched all the present observations to calculate the
absorption of terrestrial radiation by water vapour. The main material is provided by
Langley’s observations regarding the absorption of heat radiation of the moon at various
water contents of the atmosphere. The water content corresponds to an irradiated water
layer of 0.72 – 5.0 cm thickness. For this amount of water vapour, Ekholm found, while
assuming a warming increase of 15 degrees against a black background of - 80 degree
radiating black body, an absorption of 33 resp. 66.4 %. When calculating the absorption
of smaller amounts of water vapour, Ekholm used Bouguer’s formula. This calculation
could be regarded as justified by the analysis of Fowle* if Langley has used a sufficiently
small gap (according to Fowle 10”-15”). This does not seem to be the case. In any case,
the radiation groups included in Langley’s tables had a width of 15 arc minutes. There is,
therefore, no doubt that a use of Bouguer’s formula on Langley’s data produced too high
an absorption at high water vapour content, and on the other hand, produced too low
and absorption at low water vapour content of the atmosphere. Tyndall’s findings*, that
the smallest amount of water vapour sufficed to elicit a strong absorption of radiant heat,
are in contradiction with the results of the application of Bouguer’s formulas used with
Langley’s data.


https://friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/Arrhenius%201906,%20final.pdf

So it is good old CO2 and H2O all along, joined by new friends in the form of CFCs, methane and nitrous oxide that is warming the globe.
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« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:38pm by Jovial Monk »  

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lee
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #406 - Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:37pm
 
Emma wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:10pm:
Surely that last one suggests significant heating above normal since around 1980, whilst showing cooling anomalies prior to that.



And recent cooling in an El Nino year. How about that?

Much more funner (sic)

...

And the 2016 Climate report.-

"Australia's fourth-warmest year on record, with the annual national mean temperature 0.87 °C above average"

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/annual/aus/

Yet eyeballing their lovely graph it is the fifth highest. Why can't a government department count?

And of course all this is derived by 112 stations Australia wide. Which means each station if evenly spread would cover over 68,500 square kilometres. And with that they can get a temperature to two decimal places. Isn't that funny?
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #407 - Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:44pm
 
Quote:
2016 was Australia's fourth-warmest year on record (the national observational dataset commences in 1910). Australia’s area-averaged mean temperature for 2016 was 0.87 °C above the 1961–1990 average. Maximum temperatures were 0.70 °C above average, and minimum temperatures were 1.03 °C above average. Minimum temperatures were the second-warmest on record behind +1.16 °C in 1998.

The 11-year mean temperature for 2006–2016 was the second-highest on record at 0.56 °C above average. Only one year in the past ten was cooler than average (2011), and seven of Australia's ten warmest years have occurred since 2005.
Sea surface temperatures (SST) in the oceans around Australia were also very warm during 2016, with the annual mean SST the warmest on record at 0.73 °C above average, surpassing the previous record of +0.64 °C in 2010.

The warmth around the north and east coasts of Australia brought a record-warm year for several of Australia’s major cities. Darwin and Sydney had their warmest years on record for both maximum and minimum temperature, whilst Hobart had its warmest nights on record and warmest annual mean temperature, and for Brisbane the annual mean temperature was warmest on record. It was the equal third-warmest year on record for Canberra annual mean temperature. Perth had its coolest year since 2005. Adelaide was a little warmer than average, and most sites across metropolitan Melbourne were warmer than average for the year.

The Australian climate in 2016 was influenced by a combination of natural drivers and anthropogenic climate change. The pattern of above average temperatures over land and in the oceans reflects the background warming trend. In the Pacific, the El Niño which had commenced in 2015 transitioned to neutral conditions during autumn 2016, and weak La Niña-like patterns over winter. In the Indian Ocean, water to Australia’s northwest continued to be warmer than average, and a strong negative Indian Ocean Dipole developed during the year.

Annual mean temperatures for 2016 were above to very much above average for the majority of Australia, and record warm for the tropics and parts of the east coast and southern Tasmania. Temperatures were cooler than average for an area of southwestern Western Australia.


http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/annual/aus/

Table: http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/annual/aus/
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« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:57pm by Jovial Monk »  

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Re: Ice watch
Reply #408 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 12:18am
 
Emma wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 9:35pm:
Emma wrote:You don't know anything about the natural variation Grendel, any more than I do. We haven't been around that long.

Oh dear, then why do you think we are outside the natural variation parameters?
I'm telling you we are not and I did point to why and you like Monk ignored that too?
Scientists know a great deal about the past temperatures and climate zones of the planet.  They even publish these results.


Exactly. So how come AGW is supposedly definitely human caused?

Ummm, because ANTHROPOGENIC is the first word in AGW, it means originating in or through human activity, and it is just a THEORY...


How come?
See above
Roll Eyes

It stands to reason.
Smiley

What does?  Certainly what I've said is very reasonable.
Roll Eyes [/quote]
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #409 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 12:23am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:21pm:
Overall it is a clear trend of warming. Don’t see no natural variation—natural variation is just an excuse deniers like Lees, roach, Gregg come up with.

They will never name any possible force causing natural variation because there aren’t any that explain a trend of over 150 years of warming.


Unfortunately the Earth's "natural variation" starts a lot further back than 150 years Monk. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Remember what I keep telling you.  WE LIVE ON A DYNAMIC PLANET. Roll Eyes
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #410 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 12:24am
 
The warming is due to the greenhouse effect of the GHGs we put into the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels. There is no doubt about that.

Remember the chart of the North Slope of Alaska? Down radiation corresponded to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere there.

Harries showed that the earth seen from space is less bright in the parts of the IR spectrum that correspond to the spectral lines of the GHGs.

All this has happened with the sun in a quiescent stage. It will enter an active state and that will boost temperatures markedly.

Longer term there are modifications to the orbit of the earth. Not in play but they will create a major ice age in about 80,000 years.

Longer term than that we have the sun moving through its life cycle, brightening for a long time yet. To get a simple introduction:

[url]http://openhighschoolcourses.org/mod/book/tool/print/index.php?id=7202[/url]

To live with the brighter sun we need less CO2. In PreCambrian and Cambrian times the sun was not nearly as bright as it is now and so the much more abundant CO2 then did not result in a scorched, sterile world. But we have moved long way since then.

I published long extracts for a paper on this here:
[url]http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1491514221/0#0[/url]

(thread title: state of the sun and greenhouse gases. 22 Apr 2017)
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« Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2017 at 2:25am by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #411 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 9:45am
 
It isn’t the sun that is causing the warming—while the globe warmed since the 1980s the sun was quiescent.

It is not orbital perturbations.

So—not natural variation.

It is us burning fossil fuels.

When the sun becomes more active temperatures will jump!
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #412 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 12:32pm
 
Emma wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 12:59am:
Natural variation is irrelevant in this discussion really.
People keep trying to drag it in as a form of denial no doubt, but this is about HUMAN impacts.

You don't know anything about the natural variation Grendel, any more than I do. We haven't been around that long.

We DO know however, that things aren't right, here in this best of all possible worlds, and we are currently just beginning the scramble up the slippery slope of filth we have caused.


In other words, it's a strawman   Wink
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #413 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 3:05pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 9:45am:
It isn’t the sun that is causing the warming—while the globe warmed since the 1980s the sun was quiescent.
LOL-right the Sun just disappeared completely and we've been in darkness and frozen ever since.
  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

It is not orbital perturbations.
Right, so we've also stopped orbiting the Sun too eh?


So—not natural variation.
LOL...  oh puhlease what are the upper and lower temperatures of global temps over the earths history and while we are at it what are the levels of various GHGs as well eh? 


It is us burning fossil fuels.
Really?  Us just us...  strictly speaking you know we are part of nature.  But, I'll allow you that minor error, and point out in nature many things burn for a great many reasons independent on a man and a match.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

When the sun becomes more active temperatures will jump!

What Sun?  You've excluded it in your thinking already  Anyway, its all about CO2 isn't it?.
  Grin Grin Grin

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Jovial Monk
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #414 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 3:27pm
 
The sun has maxima and minima. It is currently in a minima, hence it has not caused the added warming since the 1970s.

We have also not had a perturbation of our orbit, such as causes major ice ages.

Nope, it is the burning of fossil fuels that has boosted CO2 from 280ppm to 410ppm that has caused the warming.
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #415 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:20pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:21pm:
So it is good old CO2 and H2O all along


lee wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 3:30pm:
The effect of back radiation on Earth’s atmosphere is up to 200 times larger than that of CO2 and works in the opposite direction. Thus, if CO2 has any effect on atmospheric temperature and climate change we show it is negligible."


So the CO2 component is negligible. Oh dear.

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:44pm:
2016 was Australia's fourth-warmest year on record (the national observational dataset commences in 1910).


Yes. i quoted that.

...

I also posted that. I also said the graph shows it as the fifth. Why can't BoM count? Don't we pay them enough to be accurate?

You have also said there is no natural variability. So what caused CO2 to provide 3 cool spots between 2000 and 2011?
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #416 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:37pm
 
'oh dear': lee is a concern troll and all his scaly mates smoke crack and drink gin and tonic and swap girlfriends until they all get mature age apprenticeships  Grin Grin Grin

he's got year 11 economic text books highlighted by his dad who did some crap job scamming  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Jovial Monk
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #417 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:51pm
 
lee wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:20pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 10:21pm:
So it is good old CO2 and H2O all along


lee wrote on Aug 2nd, 2017 at 3:30pm:
The effect of back radiation on Earth’s atmosphere is up to 200 times larger than that of CO2 and works in the opposite direction. Thus, if CO2 has any effect on atmospheric temperature and climate change we show it is negligible."


You have also said there is no natural variability. So what caused CO2 to provide 3 cool spots between 2000 and 2011?

Effect of CO2 on IR directed down to earth:
...

Clear and direct effect of CO2.

I said natural variation does not explain the warming of the earth. I listed several short term sources of variation.

Do you ever tire of lying, Lees?
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #418 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:09pm
 
Dregs don't lie: I suppose they just sit there and be dregs  Shocked Shocked Shocked


...wait: maye they do lie afterall  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

- carry on  Huh Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy (Don't mind me  Sad)
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Re: Ice watch
Reply #419 - Aug 3rd, 2017 at 5:51pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 3rd, 2017 at 4:51pm:
Effect of CO2 on IR directed down to earth:



That's before the new paper. Or do you like your science based in the past?

I notice you didn't address BoM's inability to count, Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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