Frank wrote on Apr 18^th, 2017 at 8:50pm:


Don't hold back.

Karnal is a very low vibration individual who exists in a 'Dur' state for most of the time while showing little horse sense even at the best of times.

Frank wrote on Apr 18^th, 2017 at 8:50pm:


Always, absolutely, never ever.  Reactionary? Moi?

Yes indeed. The old boy did say that, and more.

He has a POSITIVE agenda.

Despite making up 85% of the population, Muslims are claiming victimhood status to justify intimidation of ethnic minorities in Jakarta's election. Apparently cheating by nonMuslims is the only explanation for Muslims violating the Koranic command to only support Muslim leaders.

Are there any Nazis or "anti-everything crwods" doing this?

Jakarta election: Islamists to swamp polling booths

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/jakarta-election-islamists-to-swamp-polling-booths/news-story/81072aad0fbadc432233b01a58be9341

Islamists have vowed to defy police orders and deploy tens of thousands of “guards” to polling booths across Jakarta in today’s bitterly contested gubernatorial election run-off, raising the ­prospect of voter intimidation and a possible showdown with security forces.

The Indonesian government has promised to double the ­number of security forces for the second-round vote to 60,000, compared to 29,000 for the February election in which none of the three candidates vying for the critical governor’s job secured an outright majority.

Today’s final voting round pits the once almost-unassailable ­incumbent Basuki Tjahaja “Ahok” Purnama, an ethnic-Chinese and Christian, against Islamic scholar and former education minister Anies Baswedan.

Support for Ahok has been whittled away by an ugly race-and religion-tinged campaign waged by opposition political forces and fringe Islamist groups who last year organised three massive ­rallies in central Jakarta, the ­largest attracting half a million people demanding he be jailed for blasphemy.

The most recent polls however suggest the election result is too close to call, with Ahok trailing Mr Anies by just one percentage point.

Police yesterday deployed teams to all major toll gates leading into the capital, as well as roads and ferries connecting Jakarta with other provinces, to prevent the promised mass mobilisation of Muslims seeking to guard ­“vulnerable” polling stations against voter fraud.

Organisers of the so-called Al-Maidah Outing say they have identified 1400 polling stations for particular scrutiny, where Muslim voters were in the majority but Ahok received the largest number of votes in the first round poll. Muslim voters make up 85 per cent of Jakarta’s 7.1 million eligible voters.

They say they expect 100,000 supporters to man polling ­stations, despite warnings from police that any attempt to do so was illegal and would result in prosecution.

Al-Maidah Outing chairman Ansufri Idrus Sambo, an Islamic boarding school imam, denied the intention was to intimidate voters into supporting the Muslim candidate, notwithstanding his hopes of stationing up to 100 supporters at key polling booths.

But he said his guards would be encouraged to evict “strangers” from polling stations — a threat some have interpreted as ­targeting Indonesians of Chinese heritage.

“If there is intimidation, fraud, some strangers with no right to vote trying to vote, we record them, we evict them, we boo at them, we warn and report them to election officials and police,” he told The Australian.

Imam Ansufri said he was ­motivated by the first round election results in which Ahok secured 43 per cent of the vote, the highest number of all three candidates.

“We asked ourselves; ‘Why aren’t Muslims following al-Maidah?’ And we came to the conclusion that they were intimidated and that the election was rigged,” he said. “We came to various ­Muslim-majority areas where the non-Muslim candidate won. We talked to the local youths, the local Imams, the local figures. They all said there were people not from the area who voted in their polling stations.”

The Al-Maidah Outing group takes its name from a verse in the Koran which Islamic conservatives interpret as prohibiting ­Muslims from electing non-­Muslims to public office.

The al-Maidah 51 verse has been widely-cited this election to turn voters against Ahok, and to fuel a successful campaign to have him tried for blasphemy for ­appearing to question its ­interpretation during a September speech to constituents.

Prosecutors will deliver their sentence recommendation against Ahok tomorrow, a day after the election. Under Indonesia’s blasphemy laws he could serve a maximum five years in jail if convicted.

Leaders of the more moderate Nahdlatul Ulama have said the Al-Maidah Outing is unnecessary. “We already have election bodies that organise and supervise the elections,” NU chairman Said Aqil Siradj said on Monday.

“We also have witnesses ­dispatched by both candidates. Let’s just trust them.”

But a spokesman for the ­vigilante Islamic Defenders’ Front, a driving force behind the anti-Ahok movement, said his members would be supporting the Al-Maidah Outing to “ensure Muslims are not afraid to practise their faith”.

issuevoter wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 8:38am:




Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk, move ad hominem debate.  Move along folks, nothing new to see here, nothing new at all.   

Yeah, I figured as much. Even with your Phd, you cannot think of one Islamic contribution to Freedom and Democracy. Maybe you can go back to Uni and waste some more money.

issuevoter wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:21pm:


Islam is a religion, Issue. It's not supposed to contribute to democracy.

The freedom it offers is spiritual, not political. The problem we're discussing here comes down to those who use religion to get into politics, which is the very antithesis of spirituality, or submission of the ego to the laws of nature/God.

Islam aims to teach practical ways to achieve peace - prayer, charity, pilgrimage, faith. Most Islamic causes and movements focus on these.

A few focus on political struggle, and as we've seen, this always ends badly. If the Taliban is the result of kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan, who'd want that? Who'd want al Qaida or ISIS? These military causes start out defending the locals and end up holding them at siege. Two legs good, four legs bad.

These militias are the very antithesis of freedom, but this is what you'd expect from ragtag rebel armies comprised largely of teenage boys and young men. Despite the Aristotelian education of Alexander the Great, this was the result of his military expansion too.

Islam, like every other religion, is best when it sticks to personal transformation. Examples of this lesson are everywhere. The result of the US Bible belt's foray into politics? Donald Trump. The result of the Islamic revolution in Iran? Ayatollah Hommeini.

Religion should stay clear of politics. The ex-leader, or King, of Tibet, the Dali Lama, has established a elected cabinet and prime minister in exile to avoid the very problem we're discussing. Religion is best when it empowers people to manage their own lives. Freedom lies within, democracy lies without.

The two are best kept distant from the other, as every schoolboy knows.

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:58pm:


I'm not sure what this means, FD. The greatest threat to freedom and democracy is ignorance.

Take Australia. No problems with the Muselman, no terrorism, no civil wars, separatist movements or even Muslim political parties. Despite all your manufactured child marriage and female circumcision epidemics, we have no problems at all.

But we have a growing array of elected knuckleheads like Jaquie and Pauline who want to pretend that we do. We have politicians and columnists and citizens like yourself who make stuff up about the Muselman in the attempt to take away basic freedoms, including the right to practice your own religious beliefs.

You have, at various times over the past decade, called for things like restrictions on Muslim prayer, Muslim literature, Muslim clothing, Muslim charities, Muslim education and private schools. You want Muslim-specific questions at the airport. Actually, you want a ban on all Muslims entering the country, but you avoid saying this because it conflicts with your pretence of freedom and democracy, which is somehow under threat but you can never quite say how.

In light of all this, FD, I'd hardly say the threat to our way of life is the Muselman. I'd say the threat to freedom, democracy and plain common sense is you.