Australian Politics Forum - Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51338 At my desk.	Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy Reply #135 - Apr 20^th, 2017 at 8:50pm Quote: Do you understand that every convicted Muslim radical is sent to Goulburn Max from all over NSW? And you can tell which ones are radicals because they are in Goulburn Max.
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Yadda

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A cat with a view

Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #136 - Apr 20^th, 2017 at 10:08pm

Frank wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 8:14pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 4:42pm:

The conference heard a series of members of the Muslim community, some by prerecorded audiovisual clips and some live from the floor — deliver testimonials of what they claimed was oppressive behaviour by officials against them as Muslims, at airports, in police raids, and in high security prisons.

Oh, it's everyone else's fault that Muslims re looked at with suspicion at airports, get raided by police or sent to prison!!!!

Yep.

It always is.

Moslems are 'the virtuous people', they, are the ones who are always persecuted by those who reject ISLAM and its strictures.

/sarc off

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #137 - Apr 20^th, 2017 at 10:33pm

Frank wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 8:44pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 7:35pm:

Do you understand that every convicted Muslim radical is sent to Goulburn Max from all over NSW?

What the hell is a Muslim radical about in Australia? Why are they plotting bloody mayhem?

Oh thats an easy one.

Its because Australian courts of law won't respect the superior authority of ISLAMIC law.

It is because secular Australian law won't allow moslems to 'practice' their religion in Australia unhindered.

Unhindered ?

It is because Australian law doesn't understand that it is lawful for a 40-50 year old moslem man to marry a 9 year old girl.

It is because Australian law doesn't allow a moslem man to murder his children, if they stray from the authority of ISLAM and ISLAM's proxy in Australia - their father.

It is because Australian law doesn't understand that it is lawful for a moslem man to threaten to kill any other moslem who renounces his religious allegiance to ISLAM.

It is because Australian law doesn't allow moslem men to 'lawfully' throw people who offend their religion, off tall buildings in the CBD.

Do you see, all the ways in which Australians are oppressing moslems, in not allowing moslems to 'practice' their religion in Australia unhindered.

e.g.

Where do OZ moslem children get these ideas from ?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1489664340/0#0
Quote:

'Teacher quits after primary school students threaten to behead her'

QUESTION;
Where do moslem children living in Australia get these ideas from ?

https://s.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/170315/radical1.jpg

Students as young at 11 have apparently threatened to behead teachers at a public school in Sydney's southwest. Photo: 7 News

Quote:

Teacher quits after primary school students threaten to behead her

Yahoo7 on March 16, 2017

Frightened teachers at a Sydney primary school have revealed students are showing signs of extreme radicalisation at a young age, saying they have been traumatised by threats of beheading and other violent behaviour.

.....Students as young as in Year 5 are making the threats and pressuring peers into reading the Koran at Punchbowl Public School in Sydney's southwest, the Daily Telegraph has reported.

.....One woman reportedly claimed it all got too much for her and she eventually had to quit her job.

She said the final straw was when she received death threats to her family from her year 5 and 6 students, with some saying they would behead her.

Prior to that she claimed she made a number of complaints in 2014 about some of the behaviour in her classroom.

She said she was abused by students when she stopped them from hanging a Syrian flag in the classroom.

The woman also said she was pushed into a corner by several students who then began marching around her chanting the Koran.

Many of the students also reportedly spoke of family members fighting in the war in Syria and pupils would walk out mid-way through a lesson to go and pray.

The woman also reported an instance of bullying during which students would say to that the child being targeted had "betrayed his religion" by "not going to Muslim scripture".

https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/34663197/punchbowl-primary-school-teacher-says-y...

QUESTION;
Where do moslem children living in Australia get these ideas from ?

WHAT IDEAS ?

The idea, that it is OK for moslem children living in Australia to threaten to kill [to behead] people who do not believe as they [moslems] believe ?

-------- >

IMAGE...

Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar outside Parramatta police headquarters

QUESTION;
What 'set off' Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar on that fateful day, to decide to murder Australian Curtis Cheng in Parramatta, NSW ???

ANSWER;
ONLY ALLAH KNOWS!

n.b.
ISLAMIC culture encouraged Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar, to murder Australian Curtis Cheng.

Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar was inspired by ISLAM's imperative, which urged him TO KILL THE ENEMIES OF ALLAH.

.

QUESTION;

Where is Malcolm and the Australian government when we need them ?

Hmmmm ?

When our 'Australian values' are being assailed, by a determined group of people who are all latent wanna-be homicidal maniacs ?

[their philosophy instructs them - ALL OF THEM - that it is a virtuous thing, to kill those who do not believe, as they believe!]

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« Last Edit: Apr 20^th, 2017 at 10:43pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 44684	Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy Reply #138 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 12:33am Tsk, tsk, move along folks, nothing new here, just the same tired old Islamophobia. Oh, dearie, dearie, me.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #139 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 12:34am

freediver wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 6:45pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 6:11pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 5:39pm:

You are confused.

Really? Perhaps it comes from reading the contradictory things you say, FD. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

The contradiction is all in your head. In fact I'd be surprised if it is even there. You are probably just making it up as you go along.

Nope, its all part of the vast collection of your body of work, FD. Definitely. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #140 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 1:59am

freediver wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 4:42pm:

More 'oppression' of Muslims:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/islamist-group-hizb-uttahrir-decries-forced-muslim-assimilation/news-story/cbec1f154a39e08754aedc1c903498e4

Requiring schoolchildren to sing the national anthem, and the citizenship pledge supporting democratic values, are part of an oppressive campaign by Australian authorities of “forced assimilation” of the Muslim community, a conference heard this morning.

The conference held by Islamist activist group Hizb ut-Tahrir entitled “Innocent Until Proven Muslim” is taking place at Bankstown in Sydney’s west, attended by about 800 people.

Hizb ut-Tahrir spokesman Uthman Badar told the conference the Australian government “claims to afford freedom, but seeks to impose values and beliefs” on Muslims.

Muslims were expected to not just be gracious about Australian values, but publicly promote them, Mr Badar said.

This imposition of secular western values was reflected in the oath when taking out citizenship, Mr Badar said, with new citizens required to pledge allegiance to Australia “whose democratic beliefs I share”.

“It’s not enough that you obey the law, no, you have to adopt our values,” Mr Badar told the conference.

Similarly, Mr Badar said, schoolchildren were required to sing the national anthem, which he said, “reflects a disputed view of history”.

“If you don’t share those values, why should they be forced to sing it?” Mr Badar said.

The comments follow a backlash from many politicians and commentators to news last week that the principal of a Victorian primary school had excused Muslim students from singing Advance Australia Fair.

Mr Badar said the campaign by government and agencies against radicalisation was actually a smokescreen to “make Muslims less Islamic”.

“It is nothing less than forced assimilation ... sought to be justified by exaggerated fear of a security threat,” he said.

Government efforts to promote what it bills as a moderate form of Islam might on occasion “buy out some Imam”, Mr Badar said, but overall, “the attempt to reform Islam is doomed to failure.”

The conference heard a series of members of the Muslim community, some by prerecorded audiovisual clips and some live from the floor — deliver testimonials of what they claimed was oppressive behaviour by officials against them as Muslims, at airports, in police raids, and in high security prisons.

That's a big post, FD. Why don't you have time to answer a question on your one threat to Freeeedom - Mohammed cartoons?

What's the matter? Cat got your tongue?

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Grendel

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #141 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 9:26am

Brian Ross wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 12:33am:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KPmXCf84Ozo/UWGrVhH6nyI/AAAAAAAAAd4/0Xoj4kE1eKg/s72-c/...

Tsk, tsk, move along folks, nothing new here, just the same tired old Islamophobia. Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Roll Eyes

Tsk tsk, tsk.... Islamophobia according to Bwian is stating facts.... Grin

nothing new here.... Cheesy

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Karnal

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #142 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:10pm

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 8:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:33pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 2:53pm:

Great example, FD. The Indonesian elections show how the knuckleheads are able to consolidate their power by appealing to minority interest groups on the one hand, and ignorant populist causes on the other. In effect, it amounts to a coup. The other example? Donald J Trump, a politician you refuse to comment on.

What interests me is how willing people are to give away hard-faught rights and liberties in return for a bit of political theatre. Look at the recent referendum in Turkey for an even better example.

You know all too well how this process works. After all, when you became the 2007 FD, you gave up reason, credibility and restraint. In return, you got a popular narrative who's primary use is to lever the knuckleheads into power.

Those like Herbie, Sprint and the old boy understand this. They've always been against everything Western civilisation stands for. They want to impose a form of race-based tribalism. So nice of them to seek to impose this on our country rather than their own, but that's multiculturalism for you, I guess.

You, however, have walked blindly into this trap, and every attempt to justify your stance makes it tighter.

The power-hungry Indonesian mullahs, the Trumps, the Erdogans and all those who want the return of the tribal over the democratic: these are the greatest threats to our freedom.

From what I've seen since 2007, you've been more than willing to support them.

So an even greater threat to freedom and democracy than Muslims, is Muslims plus every other bogie man you can think of?

If you keep at it you will end up with Gandalfs "people who are undermining freedom and democracy".

I'm not sure what this means, FD. The greatest threat to freedom and democracy is ignorance.

Take Australia. No problems with the Muselman, no terrorism, no civil wars, separatist movements or even Muslim political parties. Despite all your manufactured child marriage and female circumcision epidemics, we have no problems at all.

Yet the 'vast majority' of SuperMax prisoners are... er... Muslim.
http://www.news.com.au/news/inside-australias-supermosque-prison-where-guards-fe...

Why did you put "vast majority" in quotation marks, Frank?

I'm curious.

Because it's a fiction.

Here you are, FD. Frank's contribution to the debate is fiction. Made-up propaganda with a cunning fake statistic thrown in: 63%.

As you can see, the real threat to democracy and freedom is old boy porkies. You know this all-too well, which is why you refuse to rule out telling them yourself.

Your agenda - spreading ideological and racist division through fiction - is the very real threat our political system now faces. From Britain to the US to Turkey to your own example in Indonesia; people have shown that they're more than willing to abandon their rights and freedoms in return for fiction.

Just consider this. Brexit will make Britain poorer, Americans will get the biggest swamp they've ever seen under Trump, and the Turks will get a country where the threats to their security don't come from outside the nation, but from their own president, who now has all the executive powers of a warlord.

People vote for these things based on porkies - lies spread through the new social media and propaganda sites. People have even shown that they're prepared to forgive a few lies in return for a bit of biffo - striking at the next group down the social ladder, usually immigrants.

Look at Howard. He stayed in power 8 years after Children Overboard, and much of the vote can be credited to keeping about 15,000 or so boat people out of Australia. Unpack this, and show how many came legally by air, and people's eyes glaze over. They resist the truth. They don't want one plus one equals two, they want a fake narrative with lots of invective and blaming. Ban them. Kill them. Cesterete them.

63%.

And this is the biggest threat to freedom and democracy in our time.

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« Last Edit: Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:18pm by Karnal »

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Frank

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #143 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:38pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:10pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 8:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:33pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 2:53pm:

Great example, FD. The Indonesian elections show how the knuckleheads are able to consolidate their power by appealing to minority interest groups on the one hand, and ignorant populist causes on the other. In effect, it amounts to a coup. The other example? Donald J Trump, a politician you refuse to comment on.

What interests me is how willing people are to give away hard-faught rights and liberties in return for a bit of political theatre. Look at the recent referendum in Turkey for an even better example.

You know all too well how this process works. After all, when you became the 2007 FD, you gave up reason, credibility and restraint. In return, you got a popular narrative who's primary use is to lever the knuckleheads into power.

Those like Herbie, Sprint and the old boy understand this. They've always been against everything Western civilisation stands for. They want to impose a form of race-based tribalism. So nice of them to seek to impose this on our country rather than their own, but that's multiculturalism for you, I guess.

You, however, have walked blindly into this trap, and every attempt to justify your stance makes it tighter.

The power-hungry Indonesian mullahs, the Trumps, the Erdogans and all those who want the return of the tribal over the democratic: these are the greatest threats to our freedom.

From what I've seen since 2007, you've been more than willing to support them.

So an even greater threat to freedom and democracy than Muslims, is Muslims plus every other bogie man you can think of?

If you keep at it you will end up with Gandalfs "people who are undermining freedom and democracy".

I'm not sure what this means, FD. The greatest threat to freedom and democracy is ignorance.

Take Australia. No problems with the Muselman, no terrorism, no civil wars, separatist movements or even Muslim political parties. Despite all your manufactured child marriage and female circumcision epidemics, we have no problems at all.

Yet the 'vast majority' of SuperMax prisoners are... er... Muslim.
http://www.news.com.au/news/inside-australias-supermosque-prison-where-guards-fe...

Why did you put "vast majority" in quotation marks, Frank?

I'm curious.

Because it's a fiction.

Here you are, FD. Frank's contribution to the debate is fiction.

What is fiction is the 'vast majority' of Muslims when uttered by the likes of you, Brian and all politicians talking out of both corners of their mouths.

I am contrasting your 'vast majority' of Muslims with the actual, concrete majority of Muslims in Supermax.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #144 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:43pm

Frank wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:38pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:10pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 8:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:33pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 2:53pm:

Great example, FD. The Indonesian elections show how the knuckleheads are able to consolidate their power by appealing to minority interest groups on the one hand, and ignorant populist causes on the other. In effect, it amounts to a coup. The other example? Donald J Trump, a politician you refuse to comment on.

What interests me is how willing people are to give away hard-faught rights and liberties in return for a bit of political theatre. Look at the recent referendum in Turkey for an even better example.

You know all too well how this process works. After all, when you became the 2007 FD, you gave up reason, credibility and restraint. In return, you got a popular narrative who's primary use is to lever the knuckleheads into power.

Those like Herbie, Sprint and the old boy understand this. They've always been against everything Western civilisation stands for. They want to impose a form of race-based tribalism. So nice of them to seek to impose this on our country rather than their own, but that's multiculturalism for you, I guess.

You, however, have walked blindly into this trap, and every attempt to justify your stance makes it tighter.

The power-hungry Indonesian mullahs, the Trumps, the Erdogans and all those who want the return of the tribal over the democratic: these are the greatest threats to our freedom.

From what I've seen since 2007, you've been more than willing to support them.

So an even greater threat to freedom and democracy than Muslims, is Muslims plus every other bogie man you can think of?

If you keep at it you will end up with Gandalfs "people who are undermining freedom and democracy".

I'm not sure what this means, FD. The greatest threat to freedom and democracy is ignorance.

Take Australia. No problems with the Muselman, no terrorism, no civil wars, separatist movements or even Muslim political parties. Despite all your manufactured child marriage and female circumcision epidemics, we have no problems at all.

Yet the 'vast majority' of SuperMax prisoners are... er... Muslim.
http://www.news.com.au/news/inside-australias-supermosque-prison-where-guards-fe...

Why did you put "vast majority" in quotation marks, Frank?

I'm curious.

Because it's a fiction.

Here you are, FD. Frank's contribution to the debate is fiction.

What is fiction is the 'vast majority' of Muslims when uttered by the likes of you, Brian and all politicians talking out of both corners of their mouths.

I am contrasting your 'vast majority' of Muslims with the actual, concrete majority of Muslims in Supermax.

63%, wasn't it?

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mothra

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Australian Politics

Posts: 36239
Gender: female

Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #145 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:46pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:10pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 8:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:33pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 2:53pm:

Great example, FD. The Indonesian elections show how the knuckleheads are able to consolidate their power by appealing to minority interest groups on the one hand, and ignorant populist causes on the other. In effect, it amounts to a coup. The other example? Donald J Trump, a politician you refuse to comment on.

What interests me is how willing people are to give away hard-faught rights and liberties in return for a bit of political theatre. Look at the recent referendum in Turkey for an even better example.

You know all too well how this process works. After all, when you became the 2007 FD, you gave up reason, credibility and restraint. In return, you got a popular narrative who's primary use is to lever the knuckleheads into power.

Those like Herbie, Sprint and the old boy understand this. They've always been against everything Western civilisation stands for. They want to impose a form of race-based tribalism. So nice of them to seek to impose this on our country rather than their own, but that's multiculturalism for you, I guess.

You, however, have walked blindly into this trap, and every attempt to justify your stance makes it tighter.

The power-hungry Indonesian mullahs, the Trumps, the Erdogans and all those who want the return of the tribal over the democratic: these are the greatest threats to our freedom.

From what I've seen since 2007, you've been more than willing to support them.

So an even greater threat to freedom and democracy than Muslims, is Muslims plus every other bogie man you can think of?

If you keep at it you will end up with Gandalfs "people who are undermining freedom and democracy".

I'm not sure what this means, FD. The greatest threat to freedom and democracy is ignorance.

Take Australia. No problems with the Muselman, no terrorism, no civil wars, separatist movements or even Muslim political parties. Despite all your manufactured child marriage and female circumcision epidemics, we have no problems at all.

Yet the 'vast majority' of SuperMax prisoners are... er... Muslim.
http://www.news.com.au/news/inside-australias-supermosque-prison-where-guards-fe...

Why did you put "vast majority" in quotation marks, Frank?

I'm curious.

Because it's a fiction.

Here you are, FD. Frank's contribution to the debate is fiction. Made-up propaganda with a cunning fake statistic thrown in: 63%.

As you can see, the real threat to democracy and freedom is old boy porkies. You know this all-too well, which is why you refuse to rule out telling them yourself.

Your agenda - spreading ideological and racist division through fiction - is the very real threat our political system now faces. From Britain to the US to Turkey to your own example in Indonesia; people have shown that they're more than willing to abandon their rights and freedoms in return for fiction.

Just consider this. Brexit will make Britain poorer, Americans will get the biggest swamp they've ever seen under Trump, and the Turks will get a country where the threats to their security don't come from outside the nation, but from their own president, who now has all the executive powers of a warlord.

People vote for these things based on porkies - lies spread through the new social media and propaganda sites. People have even shown that they're prepared to forgive a few lies in return for a bit of biffo - striking at the next group down the social ladder, usually immigrants.

Look at Howard. He stayed in power 8 years after Children Overboard, and much of the vote can be credited to keeping about 15,000 or so boat people out of Australia. Unpack this, and show how many came legally by air, and people's eyes glaze over. They resist the truth. They don't want one plus one equals two, they want a fake narrative with lots of invective and blaming. Ban them. Kill them. Cesterete them.

63%.

And this is the biggest threat to freedom and democracy in our time.

A wonderful post, Karnal. Absolutely agreed.

I would only add that inequity may be every bit as significant a threat to freedom and democracy. Something's gotta give, sooner or later.

Although, inequality is very much the fruit of porkies, so i'll just assume you already covered that. Don't mind me.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #146 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:48pm

Frank wrote on Apr 20^th, 2017 at 8:44pm:

Aussie wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 7:35pm:

Do you understand that every convicted Muslim radical is sent to Goulburn Max from all over NSW?

What the hell is a Muslim radical about in Australia? Why are they plotting bloody mayhem?

Why is it always a Muhammed or an Abdul? Why are there no radical sikhs in supermax, for example? God knows, they look as ridiculous as the radical Muslims, except they are far more dignified. And so they are not in supermax, hardly any in prison at all? Why?

It's the culture, that's why. Culture matters much more than anything else.

Very true, but culture is driven by specific drives and motives. Culture is a universal signifier, like capitalism or patriarchy. By themselves, these terms are meaningless.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #147 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:59pm

mothra wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:46pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 21^st, 2017 at 5:10pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 8:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:33pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 6:26pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 4:58pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 19^th, 2017 at 2:53pm:

Great example, FD. The Indonesian elections show how the knuckleheads are able to consolidate their power by appealing to minority interest groups on the one hand, and ignorant populist causes on the other. In effect, it amounts to a c

What interests me is how willing people are to give away hard-faught rights and liberties in return for a bit of political theatre. Look at the recent referendum in Turkey for an even better example.

You know all too well how this process works. After all, when you became the 2007 FD, you gave up reason, credibility and restraint. In return, you got a popular narrative who's primary use is to lever the knuckleheads into power.

Those like Herbie, Sprint and the old boy understand this. They've always been against everything Western civilisation stands for. They want to impose a form of race-based tribalism. So nice of them to seek to impose this on our country rather than their own, but that's multiculturalism for you, I guess.

You, however, have walked blindly into this trap, and every attempt to justify your stance makes it tighter.

The power-hungry Indonesian mullahs, the Trumps, the Erdogans and all those who want the return of the tribal over the democratic: these are the greatest threats to our freedom.

From what I've seen since 2007, you've been more than willing to support them.

So an even greater threat to freedom and democracy than Muslims, is Muslims plus every other bogie man you can think of?

If you keep at it you will end up with Gandalfs "people who are undermining freedom and democracy".

I'm not sure what this means, FD. The greatest threat to freedom and democracy is ignorance.

Take Australia. No problems with the Muselman, no terrorism, no civil wars, separatist movements or even Muslim political parties. Despite all your manufactured child marriage and female circumcision epidemics, we have no problems at all.

Yet the 'vast majority' of SuperMax prisoners are... er... Muslim.
http://www.news.com.au/news/inside-australias-supermosque-prison-where-guards-fe...

Why did you put "vast majority" in quotation marks, Frank?

I'm curious.

Because it's a fiction.

Here you are, FD. Frank's contribution to the debate is fiction. Made-up propaganda with a cunning fake statistic thrown in: 63%.

As you can see, the real threat to democracy and freedom is old boy porkies. You know this all-too well, which is why you refuse to rule out telling them yourself.

Your agenda - spreading ideological and racist division through fiction - is the very real threat our political system now faces. From Britain to the US to Turkey to your own example in Indonesia; people have shown that they're more than willing to abandon their rights and freedoms in return for fiction.

Just consider this. Brexit will make Britain poorer, Americans will get the biggest swamp they've ever seen under Trump, and the Turks will get a country where the threats to their security don't come from outside the nation, but from their own president, who now has all the executive powers of a warlord.

People vote for these things based on porkies - lies spread through the new social media and propaganda sites. People have even shown that they're prepared to forgive a few lies in return for a bit of biffo - striking at the next group down the social ladder, usually immigrants.

Look at Howard. He stayed in power 8 years after Children Overboard, and much of the vote can be credited to keeping about 15,000 or so boat people out of Australia. Unpack this, and show how many came legally by air, and people's eyes glaze over. They resist the truth. They don't want one plus one equals two, they want a fake narrative with lots of invective and blaming. Ban them. Kill them. Cesterete them.

63%.

And this is the biggest threat to freedom and democracy in our time.

A wonderful post, Karnal. Absolutely agreed.

I would only add that inequity may be every bit as significant a threat to freedom and democracy. Something's gotta give, sooner or later.

Although, inequality is very much the fruit of porkies, so i'll just assume you already covered that. Don't mind me.

In some ways, inequality drives freedom and democracy. We wouldn't have many of the freedoms we enjoy today without China's lack of freedom and democracy, low wages and surplus population.

What's shaping America's slide into fiction is China's rise - or what Steve Bannon calls China's theft of the middle class from America. The developed world is starting to see rivals, and it looks for strong men to declare wars and keep the riff raff out. We'll even give away a few freedoms to do so.

All animals are equal, innit. And some are more equal than others, no?

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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy Reply #148 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 6:04pm Theft of the middle class? Outsourcing jobs to 3rd world crapholes is stealing from the American middle class.
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mothra

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Australian Politics

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Re: Islam greatest threat to freedom and democracy
Reply #149 - Apr 21^st, 2017 at 6:20pm

How ethnocentric of me. I was merely considering the inequality within western countries, and overlooking the factors that contribute to how cheaply i can buy a T-shirt for my kid at K-mart.

As you say, the bulk of the heavy lifting is done by people in the developing world ... be it from deforestation and land degradation for our meat and palm sugar; the evolution of pathogens from unsustainable land management and the ecological imbalance that is associated with our practices; climate change; or the very real and tangible subjugation and exploitation of individuals and collectives to feed the western machines.

As to the inequality within western countries though, it is getting manifestly worse and worse. The Millennials are facing a future of tremendous uncertainty and i predict a return to more overt classism, which although never having left us is at least managed to an extent by a nominal social services system. This system is under severe threat however. And as the population ages without the luxury of a free-holding on a house or two to cash in for a room in a nursing home we are, i fear, heading for dangerous days.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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