Australian Politics Forum - Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability

The_Barnacle

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #30 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 11:21am

lee wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 11:37am:

As I pointed out to Mike- increased ice melt and increased ice mass balance don't appear to meld really well. If we have increased ice melt, we have to have more precipitation, to achieve not only ice mass balance, but more to increase ice mass balance.

Only if you assume that the extra sea ice is coming from the break up of Antarctic glaciers.

The article in the opening post (which you clearly haven't understood) is saying that the negative phase of the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation has created favorable conditions for additional Antarctic sea ice growth since 2000. That's sea ice made from sea water, not from precipitation.

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lee

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #31 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:00pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 11:21am:

Only if you assume that the extra sea ice is coming from the break up of Antarctic glaciers.

Nope, why would it come from only there?

If you have a net ice gain, that means you are getting more precipitation than you are losing to water.

If you can provide a theory on how to get increased net ice AND increasing icemelt, I would be happy to consider it.

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 11:21am:

That's sea ice made from sea water, not from precipitation.

So you are saying it is now colder in Antarctica and there is no ice melt? That would mean the the extent of the sea ice is based on an ocean temperature of about -2ºC.

looks unlikely. Though the data doesn't go far enough south.

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #32 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:06pm

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:00pm:

If you have a net ice gain, that means you are getting more precipitation than you are losing to water.

No it doesn't.
Precipitation has nothing to do with sea ice. Sea ice is a result of the seasonal freezing of sea water.

Quote:

Sea ice arises as seawater freezes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice

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lee

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #33 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 2:58pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:06pm:

Precipitation has nothing to do with sea ice

Well maybe.. It has everything to do with Antarctic net ice gain.

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:06pm:

Sea ice is a result of the seasonal freezing of sea water.

'Melting ice on the edges of the Antarctic continent could be leading to more fresh, just-above-freezing water, which makes refreezing into sea ice easier, Parkinson said. Or changes in water circulation patterns, bringing colder waters up to the surface around the landmass, could help grow more ice.

Snowfall could be a factor as well, Meier said. Snow landing on thin ice can actually push the thin ice below the water, which then allows cold ocean water to seep up through the ice and flood the snow – leading to a slushy mixture that freezes in the cold atmosphere and adds to the thickness of the ice. This new, thicker ice would be more resilient to melting.'

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximu...

Snow is precipitation.

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lee

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #34 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 3:53pm

Meanwhile in a new paper on the decline of th Adelie penguin -

“Penguin colonies near Palmer Station on the West Antarctic Peninsula have declined by at least 80 percent since the 1970s,” Cimino said. “Within this region we saw the most novel climate years compared to the rest of the continent. This means the most years with warmer than normal sea surface temperature. These two things seem to be happening in the West Antarctic Peninsula at a higher rate than in other areas during the same time period.”

http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/climate-change-may-shrink-adelie-pengui...

Warmer SST's should mean less sea ice.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #35 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 4:46pm

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 3:53pm:

Warmer SST's should mean less sea ice.

How much warmer?

Are all things equal or have you swapped your baseline again depending on what sermon you are delivering from your temple of carbon combustion ?

Apologise lee

Apologise then self ban - for your own sake

think of the world's children

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lee

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #36 - Jul 9^th, 2016 at 5:57pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

How much warmer?

You tell me. or The Barnacle he's the one saying sea ice is merely salt water freezing.

Quote:

Are all things equal or have you swapped your baseline again depending on what sermon you are delivering from your temple of carbon combustion ?

You need to get your facts straight - NOAA/NASA/GISS changed the baseline.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #37 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 11:00am

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 5:57pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

How much warmer?

You tell me. or The Barnacle he's the one saying sea ice is merely salt water freezing.

it's your statement lee, let me refresh your memory mate

Warmer SST's should mean less sea ice
lee

Why are you dragging poor old Barnacle into your mess? He has conducted himself with great integrity without detesting future generations of children. You will need to get yourself off the ropes without help from people who have the runs on the board and havent peddled deceptions and fossil fuel corporate profit spin.

Now lets go through this thing once more lee.

How much warmer?

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21563 Gender:	Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability Reply #38 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:30pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 11:00am: How much warmer? How much warmer is the earth proven due to CO2?
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The_Barnacle

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #39 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:44pm

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 2:58pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:06pm:

Precipitation has nothing to do with sea ice

Well maybe.. It has everything to do with Antarctic net ice gain.

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 1:06pm:

Sea ice is a result of the seasonal freezing of sea water.

'Melting ice on the edges of the Antarctic continent could be leading to more fresh, just-above-freezing water, which makes refreezing into sea ice easier, Parkinson said. Or changes in water circulation patterns, bringing colder waters up to the surface around the landmass, could help grow more ice.

Snowfall could be a factor as well, Meier said. Snow landing on thin ice can actually push the thin ice below the water, which then allows cold ocean water to seep up through the ice and flood the snow – leading to a slushy mixture that freezes in the cold atmosphere and adds to the thickness of the ice. This new, thicker ice would be more resilient to melting.'

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/antarctic-sea-ice-reaches-new-record-maximu...

Snow is precipitation.

The the negative phase of the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation affecting sea ice has nothing to do with precipitation.
And after all thats what this thread is about

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lee

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #40 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:55pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:44pm:

The the negative phase of the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation affecting sea ice has nothing to do with precipitation.

So you think expanding sea ice is only due to one factor?

BTW you are the one that made the blanket statement "Precipitation has nothing to do with sea ice ".

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #41 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:05pm

lee wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:44pm:

The the negative phase of the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation affecting sea ice has nothing to do with precipitation.
And after all thats what this thread is about

So you think expanding sea ice is only due to one factor?

BTW you are the one that made the blanket statement "Precipitation has nothing to do with sea ice ".

Of course there is more than one factor involved in the formation of sea ice but precipitation is a very minor one.
I must say that for you to randomly introduce precipitation into a thread about the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation is quite bizarre

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lee

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Re: Antarctic - Expanding Sea Ice- Natural Variability
Reply #42 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:15pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:05pm:

Of course there is more than one factor involved in the formation of sea ice but precipitation is a very minor one.

'However, it is clear that the extent of sea ice around the coast of the continent is growing. Why? The first explanation which comes to mind is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. But on the contrary, the Southern Ocean has warmed by around 0.5°C in the three decades since satellites began measuring sea ice trends.

The true reasons for the increasing ice are a complex set of factors. One factor is an increase in precipitation over the Southern Ocean, which means more snowfall. However, this trend is expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm.'

https://www.skepticalscience.com/increasing-Antarctic-Southern-sea-ice.htm

From the warmists bible.

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« Last Edit: Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:40pm by lee »

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