Australian Politics Forum - Science in Islamic countries

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Science in Islamic countries Reply #75 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:35pm changing your mind and lying are not the same thing matty.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #76 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:35pm

Frank wrote on Apr 29^th, 2016 at 10:26pm:

I think 'mainstream' Muslims are the worst, most devious. They are the ones who know they are lying as they speak to you. When they say they are 'mainstream'' you know straight away that they are trying to hoodwink you.

I have never ever heard Muslims debating each other and identifying each other as 'mainstream'. They know there is no 'mainsteam'. It's a bromide for the useful idiots outside Islam.

Martin Luther would be proud... Although his gripe was with Jews.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Ashley Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 526	Re: Science in Islamic countries Reply #77 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:39pm polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:35pm: changing your mind and lying are not the same thing matty. Wow - name calling, that must have struck a nerve.
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freediver

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #78 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:49pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 3:05pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 2:25pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 2:13pm:

Do all those Malaysian Muslims who say they support the death penalty for apostasy really mean what they say?

Yes. And of course you would have known that if you were paying attention to the original discussion.

Would they change their mind if actually given a genuine chance to achieve this?

In my opinion, answering 'yes' or 'no' on a hypothetical, inconsequential survey is vastly different to actually voting to implement the law - so its very likely they would change their mind.

And yet in both instances they would "mean what they say" - thats the bit you don't seem to get.

So when Muslims say they mean what they say, what they really mean is that they will change their mind when push comes to shove?

How do you explain how close they came to actually getting the death penalty for apostasy? The majority of Muslims want it. They elect a political party that passes it into law, but somehow it is all a big misunderstanding? Perhaps they didn't think about what death actually means?

See Frank, this is how Gandalf says that Muslims do not mean what they say without actually saying it. if it is hypothetical, you will get a different answer to if it is real, which makes it hurt a whole lot less when they hack your head off.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #79 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 9:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 6:49pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 3:05pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 2:25pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 2:13pm:

Do all those Malaysian Muslims who say they support the death penalty for apostasy really mean what they say?

Yes. And of course you would have known that if you were paying attention to the original discussion.

Would they change their mind if actually given a genuine chance to achieve this?

In my opinion, answering 'yes' or 'no' on a hypothetical, inconsequential survey is vastly different to actually voting to implement the law - so its very likely they would change their mind.

And yet in both instances they would "mean what they say" - thats the bit you don't seem to get.

So when Muslims say they mean what they say, what they really mean is that they will change their mind when push comes to shove?

Good point, FD. What do you think the 2007 FD would say about changing one's mind?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51183 At my desk.	Re: Science in Islamic countries Reply #80 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:06pm I think he would forgive his previous error of judgement. FD is oft-forgiving, most merciful. What do you think?
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Karnal

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #81 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:43pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:06pm:

I think he would forgive his previous error of judgement. FD is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

What do you think?

I think the current FD would spend his entire time here cross-examining the 2007 FD for being a shifty, evasive, yeah-but-no-but spineless apologist.

Of course, what you're really saying here is that FD would change his mind if push came to shove.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51183 At my desk.	Re: Science in Islamic countries Reply #82 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:45pm Would you put that in the same basket as not really knowing what "the death penalty for apostasy" really means?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98819	Re: Science in Islamic countries Reply #83 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:50pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:45pm: Would you put that in the same basket as not really knowing what "the death penalty for apostasy" really means? I don't even know what this question means. Will you answer my question?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51183 At my desk.	Re: Science in Islamic countries Reply #84 - May 1^st, 2016 at 8:34am When Gandalf talks about these Muslims changing their mind, it is a reference to them supporting the death penalty for apostasy, then when faced with the possibility of getting what they want, changing their mind because they realise it is the death penalty for apostasy.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #85 - May 1^st, 2016 at 9:54am

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 8:51pm:

So when Muslims say they mean what they say, what they really mean is that they will change their mind when push comes to shove?

What I said is self-explanatory and makes perfect common sense.

Currently a majority of Australians support the death penalty for deadly terrorist acts. I can guarantee you if ever there was a referendum or whatever other popular vote to make it law - Australians will end up overwhelmingly rejecting it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #86 - May 1^st, 2016 at 10:41am

You realise we only got rid of the death penalty fairly recently in our history, and plenty of western countries still have it?

We don't typically have referendums on changes to our law, so this would probably come under "or whatever". So tell me, when that Malaysian state passed a law for the death penalty for apostasy, is there any evidence of a mass changing of minds among the Muslim voters?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #87 - May 1^st, 2016 at 8:29pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 9:52pm:

Good point, FD. What do you think the 2007 FD would say about changing one's mind?

People get mugged by reality. Only a fool like you would maintain his views of Islam from 2007 to be still valid in 2016.

Your views of the world have not changed since the 60s. But that doesn't mean that you are right and nobody should change his views since the 60s or 90s or 2007.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #88 - May 2^nd, 2016 at 10:28am

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2016 at 10:41am:

So tell me, when that Malaysian state passed a law for the death penalty for apostasy, is there any evidence of a mass changing of minds among the Muslim voters?

The "law", which to date is non-implementable, was introduced over 20 years ago, and to be honest I doubt there's even much awareness at all about its existence - seeing it was passed behind closed doors with virtually no consultation. Besides which, and as I mentioned last time, the federal government's opposition to the hudud laws are well publicised, and as such there is a general understanding amongst the public that such laws are in no danger of actually being implemented yet. The reality is, the vast majority of muslim Malaysians vote for parties that are staunchly and openly against hudud.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Science in Islamic countries
Reply #89 - May 2^nd, 2016 at 10:45am

The only reason they do not have this law at the moment is because it was knocked down on federal constitutional grounds. The bulk of the people in the state supported it, and the elected state government enacted it.

Are you honestly suggesting that a federal court case to challenge a state law for the death penalty for apostasy somehow went unnoticed?

For most of the history of climate change debate, both of our major federal parties opposed carbon pricing, despite the huge support for it. Would you consider that any kind of guarantee that it won't happen, or is it a vagary of representative government that can change overnight?

What we see in Malaysia is a society walking a cliff edge, while their fellow Muslims point to the fact that they have not yet fallen off as proof that the cliff does not exist.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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