Australian Politics Forum - Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?

Laugh till you cry

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #30 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 12:47am

Setanta wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 12:09am:

We used to play this when we were about 12:
http://tunnelrats.com.au/
We used to crawl through the storm water pipes, they got thinner and thinner, we had our pocket knives and cap pistols. Someone from Perth could verify the "tunnels" exist. The entry is is still on google maps. Second cousin died stepping on a mine, uncle is agent oranged.

edit: 33 Shaw Rd Perth, Western Australia on google maps. Look across the road, into Birralee Oval..

Edit2: I also saw skylab re-enter whilst sitting on the round pine post railing that was around Birralee Oval. Very clear and open view, it was quite spectacular.

We all have our crosses to bear. Commiserations.

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BigOl64

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #31 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:17am

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

Let us not forget how he bravely let the indons kill 5 Aussie journos without comment while they invaded East Timor under his watch, I bet the 250 000 dead ETs are glad he came to power when he did.

The man had no morals and was a coward of the highest order.

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ian

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #32 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:23am

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 4:16pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 12:06pm:

Forty+ years after withdrawal from Vietnam it is interesting to look back.

There is no doubt that ADF did not win and that ADF, if it had fought alone, could not have defeated Vietnam.

But, the war glorifiers ignore the fact that ADF were in fact defeated and left before the war intensified. If ADF had not left, the ADF losses would have been more severe when North Vietnam overran the country.

Whitlam's withdrawal from Vietnam brought the wrath of USA on him and USA later deposed Whitlam.

Arthur Calwell's 1965 speech predicted that South Vietnam would not be saved and USA would be humiliated.

What I can gather from this post is that your are either a very bad liar, or you are a cretin who failed high school history.

That bastard whitalm did not 'withdraw the troops', and anyone with access to wiki or google would know that the final battalion was sent and withdrawn by Gorton by 1970. Whitlam was voted in 1972 and released the gutless cowards from gaol which I believe was the pinnacle of his time in office.

A stupid post by a typical socialist. But about the standard to be expected

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

No genocide, thats nonsense.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #33 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:29am

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 4:16pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 12:06pm:

Forty+ years after withdrawal from Vietnam it is interesting to look back.

There is no doubt that ADF did not win and that ADF, if it had fought alone, could not have defeated Vietnam.

But, the war glorifiers ignore the fact that ADF were in fact defeated and left before the war intensified. If ADF had not left, the ADF losses would have been more severe when North Vietnam overran the country.

Whitlam's withdrawal from Vietnam brought the wrath of USA on him and USA later deposed Whitlam.

Arthur Calwell's 1965 speech predicted that South Vietnam would not be saved and USA would be humiliated.

What I can gather from this post is that your are either a very bad liar, or you are a cretin who failed high school history.

That bastard whitalm did not 'withdraw the troops', and anyone with access to wiki or google would know that the final battalion was sent and withdrawn by Gorton by 1970. Whitlam was voted in 1972 and released the gutless cowards from gaol which I believe was the pinnacle of his time in office.

A stupid post by a typical socialist. But about the standard to be expected

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

As opposition leader?

The real genocide in Indonesia happened when Suharto got in: an estimated million-plus "leftists" rounded up and killed - with US weapons, helicopters and support on the UN.

Oh - and Suharto was supported by Whitlam too (as Prime Minister, not opposition leader).

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Soren

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #34 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:40pm

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 4:16pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 12:06pm:

Forty+ years after withdrawal from Vietnam it is interesting to look back.

There is no doubt that ADF did not win and that ADF, if it had fought alone, could not have defeated Vietnam.

But, the war glorifiers ignore the fact that ADF were in fact defeated and left before the war intensified. If ADF had not left, the ADF losses would have been more severe when North Vietnam overran the country.

Whitlam's withdrawal from Vietnam brought the wrath of USA on him and USA later deposed Whitlam.

Arthur Calwell's 1965 speech predicted that South Vietnam would not be saved and USA would be humiliated.

What I can gather from this post is that your are either a very bad liar, or you are a cretin who failed high school history.

Cretin is correct.

With bells on.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 89837 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF? Reply #35 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:09pm No. It was a lost war but the battle was won. Funny thing politics..... and the whole thing is sad in retrospect, from many sides.
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #36 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:11pm

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:17am:

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

Let us not forget how he bravely let the indons kill 5 Aussie journos without comment while they invaded East Timor under his watch, I bet the 250 000 dead ETs are glad he came to power when he did.

The man had no morals and was a coward of the highest order.

Now that agree with. The greatest act of craven cowardice was allowing Indonesia to invade ET and West Papua and kill off the people. Gutless and craven for a country such as Australia to stand by without a word.

Wind down of troops was already in train before Whitlam was elected - started in 1969 when the Yanks wanted 50,000 more troops to finish the job that Tet '68 started, and the US politicians lost their nerve. There were more casualties in 1969 then any other year - pre Tet '68 US dead were around 17000 - then they had all those stupid battles like Hamburger Hill, Dat Do and such.

3RAR second tour in '70 met little to no opposition, but 4RAR had some hefty battles in 1971-2, when the wind down was in full swing.

Tunnels were at Cu Chi north east of Nui Dat. 1RAR did a stint in there.. bad place...

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« Last Edit: Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:17pm by Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #37 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:38pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:11pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:17am:

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

Let us not forget how he bravely let the indons kill 5 Aussie journos without comment while they invaded East Timor under his watch, I bet the 250 000 dead ETs are glad he came to power when he did.

The man had no morals and was a coward of the highest order.

Now that agree with. The greatest act of craven cowardice was allowing Indonesia to invade ET and West Papua and kill off the people. Gutless and craven for a country such as Australia to stand by without a word.

Wind down of troops was already in train before Whitlam was elected - started in 1969 when the Yanks wanted 50,000 more troops to finish the job that Tet '68 started, and the US politicians lost their nerve. There were more casualties in 1969 then any other year - pre Tet '68 US dead were around 17000 - then they had all those stupid battles like Hamburger Hill, Dat Do and such.

3RAR second tour in '70 met little to no opposition, but 4RAR had some hefty battles in 1971-2, when the wind down was in full swing.

Tunnels were at Cu Chi north east of Nui Dat. 1RAR did a stint in there.. bad place...

Firstly, Australia does what it is told to by USA which was a strong supporter of Indonesia at that time.

Secondly, Australia had suffered defeat in Vietnam and it was unlikely Australia could have defeated Indonesia. If it did, occupation of Indonesia would have been costly.

Thirdly, war with Indonesia could have sparked South East Asia regional conflict which could have killed more people than Australia could have saved if it acted.

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« Last Edit: Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:50pm by Laugh till you cry »

Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19922 Gender:	Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF? Reply #38 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 1:41pm Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:38pm: Thirdly, war with Indonesia could have sparked South East Asia regional conflict which could have killed more people than Australia could have saved if it acted. So we should do the wrong thing, because we might lose.
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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #39 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 1:44pm

lee wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 1:41pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:38pm:

Thirdly, war with Indonesia could have sparked South East Asia regional conflict which could have killed more people than Australia could have saved if it acted.

So we should do the wrong thing, because we might lose.

Australia did the wrong thing because that is what USA demanded.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19922 Gender:	Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF? Reply #40 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 1:51pm Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 1:44pm: Australia did the wrong thing because that is what USA demanded. Then that marks our leaders cowards.
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #41 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:02pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:38pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:11pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:17am:

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

Let us not forget how he bravely let the indons kill 5 Aussie journos without comment while they invaded East Timor under his watch, I bet the 250 000 dead ETs are glad he came to power when he did.

The man had no morals and was a coward of the highest order.

Now that agree with. The greatest act of craven cowardice was allowing Indonesia to invade ET and West Papua and kill off the people. Gutless and craven for a country such as Australia to stand by without a word.

Wind down of troops was already in train before Whitlam was elected - started in 1969 when the Yanks wanted 50,000 more troops to finish the job that Tet '68 started, and the US politicians lost their nerve. There were more casualties in 1969 then any other year - pre Tet '68 US dead were around 17000 - then they had all those stupid battles like Hamburger Hill, Dat Do and such.

3RAR second tour in '70 met little to no opposition, but 4RAR had some hefty battles in 1971-2, when the wind down was in full swing.

Tunnels were at Cu Chi north east of Nui Dat. 1RAR did a stint in there.. bad place...

Firstly, Australia does what it is told to by USA which was a strong supporter of Indonesia at that time.

Secondly, Australia had suffered defeat in Vietnam and it was unlikely Australia could have defeated Indonesia. If it did, occupation of Indonesia would have been costly.

Thirdly, war with Indonesia could have sparked South East Asia regional conflict which could have killed more people than Australia could have saved if it acted.

It's the failure to take a stance with Indonesia over its crimes that matters.. I notice that when ET was resumed as a 'free' country, Indonesia didn't have much to say.... bit hard when a US carrier group is somewhere off the north of you ready to intervene if Australian troops are attacked.

What was lacking at the time of the invasions was a near lack of moral fibre in the international community.. more of a preponderance of moral torpor....

Shame, Australia... SHAME!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #42 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:46pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:02pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:38pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:11pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:17am:

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

Let us not forget how he bravely let the indons kill 5 Aussie journos without comment while they invaded East Timor under his watch, I bet the 250 000 dead ETs are glad he came to power when he did.

The man had no morals and was a coward of the highest order.

Now that agree with. The greatest act of craven cowardice was allowing Indonesia to invade ET and West Papua and kill off the people. Gutless and craven for a country such as Australia to stand by without a word.

Wind down of troops was already in train before Whitlam was elected - started in 1969 when the Yanks wanted 50,000 more troops to finish the job that Tet '68 started, and the US politicians lost their nerve. There were more casualties in 1969 then any other year - pre Tet '68 US dead were around 17000 - then they had all those stupid battles like Hamburger Hill, Dat Do and such.

3RAR second tour in '70 met little to no opposition, but 4RAR had some hefty battles in 1971-2, when the wind down was in full swing.

Tunnels were at Cu Chi north east of Nui Dat. 1RAR did a stint in there.. bad place...

Firstly, Australia does what it is told to by USA which was a strong supporter of Indonesia at that time.

Secondly, Australia had suffered defeat in Vietnam and it was unlikely Australia could have defeated Indonesia. If it did, occupation of Indonesia would have been costly.

Thirdly, war with Indonesia could have sparked South East Asia regional conflict which could have killed more people than Australia could have saved if it acted.

It's the failure to take a stance with Indonesia over its crimes that matters.. I notice that when ET was resumed as a 'free' country, Indonesia didn't have much to say.... bit hard when a US carrier group is somewhere off the north of you ready to intervene if Australian troops are attacked.

What was lacking at the time of the invasions was a near lack of moral fibre in the international community.. more of a preponderance of moral torpor....

Shame, Australia... SHAME!

USA was intent on preventing any communist influence in ET and it therefore supported the brutality of the Indonesians. Eventually US was forced to relent by the weight of international condemnation.

USA makes a lot of mistakes. Australia consented to those mistakes and was complicit in the consequences.

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #43 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:53pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:46pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:02pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 12:38pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 7:11pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 5:17am:

Gnads wrote on Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:21pm:

And prior to that(1965) he had a hand in handing over West Papua to Indonesian control .....

and genocide of the native people by Indonesia has been occurring ever since.

You truly are a sickening lying two faced racist swine LTYC.

Let us not forget how he bravely let the indons kill 5 Aussie journos without comment while they invaded East Timor under his watch, I bet the 250 000 dead ETs are glad he came to power when he did.

The man had no morals and was a coward of the highest order.

Now that agree with. The greatest act of craven cowardice was allowing Indonesia to invade ET and West Papua and kill off the people. Gutless and craven for a country such as Australia to stand by without a word.

Wind down of troops was already in train before Whitlam was elected - started in 1969 when the Yanks wanted 50,000 more troops to finish the job that Tet '68 started, and the US politicians lost their nerve. There were more casualties in 1969 then any other year - pre Tet '68 US dead were around 17000 - then they had all those stupid battles like Hamburger Hill, Dat Do and such.

3RAR second tour in '70 met little to no opposition, but 4RAR had some hefty battles in 1971-2, when the wind down was in full swing.

Tunnels were at Cu Chi north east of Nui Dat. 1RAR did a stint in there.. bad place...

Firstly, Australia does what it is told to by USA which was a strong supporter of Indonesia at that time.

Secondly, Australia had suffered defeat in Vietnam and it was unlikely Australia could have defeated Indonesia. If it did, occupation of Indonesia would have been costly.

Thirdly, war with Indonesia could have sparked South East Asia regional conflict which could have killed more people than Australia could have saved if it acted.

It's the failure to take a stance with Indonesia over its crimes that matters.. I notice that when ET was resumed as a 'free' country, Indonesia didn't have much to say.... bit hard when a US carrier group is somewhere off the north of you ready to intervene if Australian troops are attacked.

What was lacking at the time of the invasions was a near lack of moral fibre in the international community.. more of a preponderance of moral torpor....

Shame, Australia... SHAME!

USA was intent on preventing any communist influence in ET and it therefore supported the brutality of the Indonesians. Eventually US was forced to relent by the weight of international condemnation.

USA makes a lot of mistakes. Australia consented to those mistakes and was complicit in the consequences.

How do you feel about South Vietnam being forcibly overtaken by the North when Vietnam has always had a North and South divide?? How do you feel about the 100,000's of South Vietnamese who went missing after the North took over?

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #44 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 3:13pm

double plus good wrote on Feb 9^th, 2016 at 2:53pm:

How do you feel about South Vietnam being forcibly overtaken by the North

If there was strong opposition in South Vietnam or no support in the South it would not have happened. It is arguable that there was considerable support in the South for unified Vietnam.

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