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Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF? (Read 4699 times)
Laugh till you cry
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Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:06pm
 
Forty+ years after withdrawal from Vietnam it is interesting to look back.

There is no doubt that ADF did not win and that ADF, if it had fought alone, could not have defeated Vietnam.

But, the war glorifiers ignore the fact that ADF were in fact defeated and left before the war intensified. If ADF had not left, the ADF losses would have been more severe when North Vietnam overran the country.

Whitlam's withdrawal from Vietnam brought the wrath of USA on him and USA later deposed Whitlam.

Arthur Calwell's 1965 speech predicted that South Vietnam would not be saved and USA would be humiliated.

...

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/vietnam-the-other-war-we-need-to-remember-20150...

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On the other hand, the counter-arguments were also strong, and they deserve much closer attention than they commonly receive today. Calwell's reply to Menzies' announcement on May 4, 1965 remains one of the greatest parliamentary speeches in our history, and there is perhaps no better way to mark this anniversary than to Google it, and read it for yourself.  It sets out all the issues that were to dominate the debate over the coming years, and the resonances with many of the issues we face today are extraordinary.

In a remarkable reminder of the days when our political leaders used Parliament to present arguments and debate issues, Calwell set out the case against Menzies' decision with great clarity and precision. He did not contest the seriousness of Australia's strategic situation, but with extraordinary prescience he foresaw precisely why the commitment of western forces to combat operations on the ground would not save South Vietnam, and why it would humiliate the US.

But despite the power of Calwell's argument, it is not clear as we look back today that he had all the right on his side. Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew, another Vietnam-era statesman who has recently passed from the scene, used to argue that the United States' and Australia's fight in Vietnam won time for the newly independent countries of south-east Asia to find their feet, and thus contributed vitally to the emergence of the stable, prosperous south-east Asia in the 1970s and 1980s.

And while the US certainly was humiliated in Vietnam, just as Calwell predicted, that was not the end of the story. In one of history's strangest switchbacks, military failure in Vietnam led Richard Nixon to Beijing in 1972, when the deal he did with Mao laid the foundation for Asia's post-Vietnam order.  Far from withdrawing, the US emerged after 1972 as the uncontested leader of that order, ensuring Asia's and Australia's security ever since. No one on either side of the Vietnam debate could have predicted that.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/vietnam-the-other-war-we-need-to-remember-20150...
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Laugh till you cry
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #1 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:14pm
 
Arthur Calwell's speech which was very prescient:

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/media/pressrel/CAAA6/upload_binary/...



Quote:
Here is Calwell's rousing conclusion:

May I, through you, Mr Speaker, address this message to the members of my own party – my colleagues here in this parliament, and that vast band of Labor men and women outside: the course we have agreed to take today is fraught with difficulty. I cannot promise you that easy popularity can be bought in times like these; nor are we looking for it. We are doing our duty as we see it. When the drums beat and the trumpets sound, the voice of reason and right can be heard in the land only with difficulty. But if we are to have the courage of our convictions, then we must do our best to make that voice heard. I offer you the probability that you will be traduced, that your motives will be misrepresented, that your patriotism will be impugned, that your courage will be called into question. But I also offer you the sure and certain knowledge that we will be vindicated; that generations to come will record with gratitude that when a reckless government wilfully endangered the security of this nation, the voice of the Australian Labor Party was heard, strong and clear, on the side of sanity and in the cause of humanity, and in the interests of Australia's security.

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/07/31/Ten-speeches-Australias-place-in-...
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:21pm by Laugh till you cry »  

Please don't thank me. Effusive fawning and obeisance of disciples, mendicants, and foot-kissers embarrass me.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #2 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:19pm
 
Australia's entry into the war in the first place was illegal. Menzies lied to the Australian parliament when he claimed the US had requested our involvement - when in fact Menzies begged the US to go in.
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #3 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:21pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:19pm:
Australia's entry into the war in the first place was illegal. Menzies lied to the Australian parliament when he claimed the US had requested our involvement - when in fact Menzies begged the US to go in.



Link - Mr Pimpernel  ?
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bwood1946
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #4 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:52pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:14pm:
Arthur Calwell's speech which was very prescient:

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/media/pressrel/CAAA6/upload_binary/...



Quote:
Here is Calwell's rousing conclusion:

May I, through you, Mr Speaker, address this message to the members of my own party – my colleagues here in this parliament, and that vast band of Labor men and women outside: the course we have agreed to take today is fraught with difficulty. I cannot promise you that easy popularity can be bought in times like these; nor are we looking for it. We are doing our duty as we see it. When the drums beat and the trumpets sound, the voice of reason and right can be heard in the land only with difficulty. But if we are to have the courage of our convictions, then we must do our best to make that voice heard. I offer you the probability that you will be traduced, that your motives will be misrepresented, that your patriotism will be impugned, that your courage will be called into question. But I also offer you the sure and certain knowledge that we will be vindicated; that generations to come will record with gratitude that when a reckless government wilfully endangered the security of this nation, the voice of the Australian Labor Party was heard, strong and clear, on the side of sanity and in the cause of humanity, and in the interests of Australia's security.

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/07/31/Ten-speeches-Australias-place-in-...


YOU PLUCKING KNOW NOTHING NOBODY SHOULD BE SHOT!!! Angry Angry Angry

And the sooner the better before some wanker breeds with you like your dumb plucking mother Did with the next doors DOG   Angry
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #5 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:55pm
 
bwood1946 wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:52pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 12:14pm:
Arthur Calwell's speech which was very prescient:

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/media/pressrel/CAAA6/upload_binary/...



Quote:
Here is Calwell's rousing conclusion:

May I, through you, Mr Speaker, address this message to the members of my own party – my colleagues here in this parliament, and that vast band of Labor men and women outside: the course we have agreed to take today is fraught with difficulty. I cannot promise you that easy popularity can be bought in times like these; nor are we looking for it. We are doing our duty as we see it. When the drums beat and the trumpets sound, the voice of reason and right can be heard in the land only with difficulty. But if we are to have the courage of our convictions, then we must do our best to make that voice heard. I offer you the probability that you will be traduced, that your motives will be misrepresented, that your patriotism will be impugned, that your courage will be called into question. But I also offer you the sure and certain knowledge that we will be vindicated; that generations to come will record with gratitude that when a reckless government wilfully endangered the security of this nation, the voice of the Australian Labor Party was heard, strong and clear, on the side of sanity and in the cause of humanity, and in the interests of Australia's security.

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2014/07/31/Ten-speeches-Australias-place-in-...


YOU PLUCKING KNOW NOTHING NOBODY SHOULD BE SHOT!!! Angry Angry Angry

And the sooner the better before some person breeds with you like your dumb plucking mother Did with the next doors DOG   Angry


See, Arthur Calwell even predicted BWoods existence and foul mouthed invective.

"... you will be traduced, that your motives will be misrepresented, that your patriotism will be impugned, that your courage will be called into question..."
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #6 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:25pm
 
This question is not honest. It is in line with Laugh's regular anti-Australian, and anti-white rhetoric. He knows perfectly well that Australian troops had no part in the decision making process of that war. The United States was defeated in Vietnam. The presence of the Australian Army had no effect on the outcome. It was a token of the alliance. To describe the out come as a defeat for the ADF, is to imply that they could have won the war. It is a meaningless and dishonest question in keeping with Laugh's spiteful agenda.
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Laugh till you cry
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #7 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:44pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:25pm:
This question is not honest. It is in line with Laugh's regular anti-Australian, and anti-white rhetoric. He knows perfectly well that Australian troops had no part in the decision making process of that war. The United States was defeated in Vietnam. The presence of the Australian Army had no effect on the outcome. It was a token of the alliance. To describe the out come as a defeat for the ADF, is to imply that they could have won the war. It is a meaningless and dishonest question in keeping with Laugh's spiteful agenda.


You denounce every question that challenges your beliefs as dishonest.

If Australia was not fighting as a separate entity why were Australian troops not just amalgamated into USA troops under USA command? Why did Australia maintain forces in particular regions of South Vietnam?

If ADF could not make a difference, why were they in the front lines instead of just supporting in the rear?

It seems ADF was just cannon fodder.
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #8 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:53pm
 
Compared to War, all other fields of human endeavour , pale into insignificance.





greater love then this has no man, then that he lay down his life for his friends
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #9 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:57pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:53pm:
Compared to War, all other fields of human endeavour , pale into insignificance.





greater love then this has no man, then that he lay down his life for his friends


Gee, everyone below the rank of Warrant Officer was undeserving!
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #10 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:01pm
 
Aussie wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:57pm:
aquascoot wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:53pm:
Compared to War, all other fields of human endeavour , pale into insignificance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pEUX0ikW_c[/media]


greater love then this has no man, then that he lay down his life for his friends


Gee, everyone below the rank of Warrant Officer was undeserving!


The Freemasons got a gong. Others went unnoticed.
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:29pm by Laugh till you cry »  

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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #11 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:15pm
 
Aussie wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:57pm:
aquascoot wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:53pm:
Compared to War, all other fields of human endeavour , pale into insignificance.





greater love then this has no man, then that he lay down his life for his friends


Gee, everyone below the rank of Warrant Officer was undeserving!


the VC's were mainly won when the australian army was there in a training and advisory role, in the earlier years.
the main people involved in training in an army company are the warrant officers (and other NCO's) who would have been embedded with south vietnamese troops.

I hope Keith Payne doesnt read this thread. it would be insulting to the great man to see such 5th columnists posting such ill considered things. The ADF were considered elite soliders in vietnam.
One unit (i forget which) had a special citation medal struck by the americans for extreme valour in holding a position which prevented numerous american units being over run as they retreated.
this was the first time the americans had presented a unit citation medal to every member of a fighting unit and it was presented to every member of an australain unit.
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #12 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:16pm
 
And not one VC came out of Long Tan.  It was Delta Co, 6RAR which got that USA Unit citation for Long Tan.  Yet, not one Aussie got a VC out of it.  My erstwhile neighbour Harry Smith of that Company was and is livid, and he is still battling to get his men due recognition.
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:23pm by Aussie »  
 
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #13 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:19pm
 
Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:44pm:
If Australia was not fighting as a separate entity why were Australian troops not just amalgamated into USA troops under USA command?



Because we had already been subject to that, and would not do so again.
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Re: Was the Vietnam war a defeat for the ADF?
Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:47pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 3:19pm:
Laugh till you cry wrote on Feb 7th, 2016 at 2:44pm:
If Australia was not fighting as a separate entity why were Australian troops not just amalgamated into USA troops under USA command?


Because we had already been subject to that, and would not do so again.


The ADF presence in Vietnam was tokenism and it's arguable they should not enter such conflicts without full integration with USA forces.
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