Australian Politics Forum - US Muslims to do more.

Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #60 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:38am

Bobby. wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:31am:

No - it would work as the whole family not just the one radical member would be up on charges -

that would make a huge dent in their plans.

That's how the Israelis deal with them -

they bulldoze the whole family home down if one member is a terrorist.

Ask the Jews - it works!

Yeah, let's ask the Jews.. in WW2 about how collective guilt worked for them under Hitler's persecution.

It's idiotic and only causes more problems. Those problems are only being amplified in the Palestinian territories with the demolishing of the homes of people.

It's very simple in that you can rarely prove that people knew about it and it becomes a witch hunt.

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freediver

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #61 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:42am

Lafayette did you know that Gandalf actually supports mass murder and collective guilt in some circumstances where it involves scheming Jews?

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We should interfere in whatever is in our interests to interfere in. But we shouldn't then lie about the consequences of our interference and say that our interference was not a contributing factor to the terrorism that we then get attacked with.

So when you blame the west for terrorism, this is not actually a criticism?

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Very well. next to me I have an AKM, a Beretta 1301 Tactical and a Glock 19. All are fully loaded and ready to rock and roll

And this protects you from terrorism?

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I completely agree with you FD. Obviously if there are issues in the community they need to be addressed, but we need to make sure that we are not exacerbating them with our actions.

You think Islam itself needs reform, rather than simple window dressing?

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Bobby.

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #62 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:45am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:38am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:31am:

No - it would work as the whole family not just the one radical member would be up on charges -

that would make a huge dent in their plans.

That's how the Israelis deal with them -

they bulldoze the whole family home down if one member is a terrorist.

Ask the Jews - it works!

Yeah, let's ask the Jews.. in WW2 about how collective guilt worked for them under Hitler's persecution.

It's idiotic and only causes more problems. Those problems are only being amplified in the Palestinian territories with the demolishing of the homes of people.

It's very simple in that you can rarely prove that people knew about it and it becomes a witch hunt.

No - a verdict before 12 men - brave & true is enough to prove guilt.

forgiven

namaste

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #63 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:45am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:28am:

I think the hand holding strategy is probably more effective in the short term, but may undermine efforts in the long term.

Long term, we need to address the underlying issues.

This problem won't go away overnight just by being nice to Muslims.

No one is saying it will go away "just by being nice to Muslims" - but what I asked specifically was to do with supporting and empowering muslims who preach against terrorism and prosecute the peaceful version of Islam. Your posting history indicates you are more interested in mocking and de-legitimising these muslims - while others like issuevoter actually take it to the absurd level of ridiculing such efforts as not confronting the issue of violence in Islam.

Do you think such criticism by non-muslims is counter-productive to the fight against terrorism?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #64 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:58am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:42am:

Lafayette did you know that Gandalf actually supports mass murder and collective guilt in some circumstances where it involves scheming Jews?

I have no idea, show me where he has said that.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:42am:

So when you blame the west for terrorism, this is not actually a criticism?

I haven't blamed the West for terrorism. I'm saying that if we want to have certain policies towards other nations, we have to understand that the people that live in those nations may not be happy with that and may try and attack us for it.

If we are prepared to deal with that and it is worth having those policies then that is fine. What we shouldn't do however is say that our policies do not in any way contribute to hatred towards us and ultimately lead to attacks against us.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:42am:

And this protects you from terrorism?

Yeah, if terrorists try and barge through my door they're getting shot in the face.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:42am:

You think Islam itself needs reform, rather than simple window dressing?

I think that the interpretation of Islam by Muslim scholars to form the Islamic schools of thought need reform and that it is often based on cultural practices rather than Islam itself.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #65 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:00pm

Bobby. wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 11:45am:

No - a verdict before 12 men - brave & true is enough to prove guilt.

forgiven

namaste

No, you first need probable cause to be able to charge someone with a crime even before you get to a trial and usually there isn't even that in these situations. So unless you are prepare to lower the standards of charging someone with a crime for all crimes, thus making kangaroo courts then it just won't work.

I might also point out that the Israelis don't hold trials in this case, just like the Nazis didn't when applying collective guilt against the Jewish people during WW2

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freediver

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #66 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:02pm

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but what I asked specifically was to do with supporting and empowering muslims

You may interpret my answer as being in reference to your points. By support, do you mean giving them money to help them preach Islam?

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I have no idea, show me where he has said that.

Do a search for "tough titties, off with their heads". He uses that phrase quite a lot when we talk about slaughtering scheming Jews.

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Yeah, if terrorists try and barge through my door they're getting shot in the face.

So you carry your gun on you round the house in case Muslim come barging through the door?

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I think that the interpretation of Islam by Muslim scholars to form the Islamic schools of thought need reform and that it is often based on cultural practices rather than Islam itself.

"Nothing to do with Islam" will suffice.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #67 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:11pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

You may interpret my answer as being in reference to your points. By support, do you mean giving them money to help them preach Islam?

no, I specifically said by not mocking them and trying to de-legitimise them.

Do you think people who do mock and try and de-legitimise muslims who preach against terrorism are being counter-productive in the fight against terrorism?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #68 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:16pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

Do a search for "tough titties, off with their heads". He uses that phrase quite a lot when we talk about slaughtering scheming Jews.

Ah yes - that would be where I specifically spoke up against collective punishment and defended the decision to execute men who had violated the treaty they had with Muhammad, and conspired with the people who were attempting to overrun Medina and slaughter its inhabitants. The same time you attempted to put "I support collective punishment" and "scheming jews" into my mouth.

Don't worry Laf, you'll get used to FD - a little while back he insisted I wanted to execute gays - by referencing a thread where I literally said the exact opposite.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #69 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:15pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

So you carry your gun on you round the house in case Muslim come barging through the door?

Actually I carry my gun on me around the house in case anyone barges through my door. You asked me specifically about terrorists and I answered to that.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

"Nothing to do with Islam" will suffice.

It won't suffice because that's not what I said. It has to do with extreme interpretations of Islam by fallible men that are guided by their own hateful perversions, biases and lusts for power and wealth.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #70 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:16pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 12:02pm:

Do a search for "tough titties, off with their heads". He uses that phrase quite a lot when we talk about slaughtering scheming Jews.

Ah yes - that would be where I specifically spoke up against collective punishment and defended the decision to execute men who had violated the treaty they had with Muhammad, and conspired with the people who were attempting to overrun Medina and slaughter its inhabitants. The same time you attempted to put "I support collective punishment" and "scheming jews" into my mouth.

Don't worry Laf, you'll get used to FD - a little while back he insisted I wanted to execute gays - by referencing a thread where I literally said the exact opposite.

I believe that the Banu Qurayza got exactly what they deserved. Their religion or ethnicity was irrelevant as they committed treason and attacked the state by attacking it from within while the state was being attacked by hordes of savages trying to overrun them and kill them all.

Had the Banu Qurayza had any honor then they'd have left the state and fought it from outside. Instead they committed treason.

I also believe that any American, regardless of their religion, that has taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution and then attacks the state from within to overthrow our system of government should also be put to death.

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freediver

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #71 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm

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Do you think people who do mock and try and de-legitimise muslims who preach against terrorism are being counter-productive in the fight against terrorism?

I suppose it depends on whether they are legitimate or funny.

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Ah yes - that would be where I specifically spoke up against collective punishment and defended the decision to execute men who had violated the treaty they had with Muhammad, and conspired with the people who were attempting to overrun Medina and slaughter its inhabitants. The same time you attempted to put "I support collective punishment" and "scheming jews" into my mouth.

Earth to Gandalf. Slaughtering 800 people without trial is collective punishment. You even concede they were punished as a collective, but tried to make a distinction between that and collective punishment, because collective punishment makes it sound bad.

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Actually I carry my gun on me around the house in case anyone barges through my door.

Don't worry, I am sure this is perfectly normaly behaviour for a Muslim gun nut who works in anti-terrorism.

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You asked me specifically about terrorists and I answered to that.

Ah, but you did so much more.

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I believe that the Banu Qurayza got exactly what they deserved. Their religion or ethnicity was irrelevant as they committed treason and attacked the state by attacking it from within while the state was being attacked by hordes of savages trying to overrun them and kill them all.

So collective punishment is OK when Muslims do it in an effort to create an Islamic State?

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I also believe that any American, regardless of their religion, that has taken an oath to support and defend the Constitution and then attacks the state from within to overthrow our system of government should also be put to death.

Along with 800 of his closest male relatives? And you get some of the women for yourself?

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #72 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:59pm

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Earth to Gandalf. Slaughtering 800 people without trial is collective punishment. You even concede they were punished as a collective, but tried to make a distinction between that and collective punishment, because collective punishment makes it sound bad.

There was a trial, and they were judged according to Jewish law, as they asked for. They even got to choose their own judge.

The 800 males were all fighting aged males that participated in the treason.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Don't worry, I am sure this is perfectly normaly behaviour for a Muslim gun nut who works in anti-terrorism.

This is why people carry guns even at home, because of home invasions. Having a firearm close can save the lives of your family.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

So collective punishment is OK when Muslims do it in an effort to create an Islamic State?

Madinah wasn't an Islamic state, certainly not in the Islamist modern sense of the word.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Along with 800 of his closest male relatives? And you get some of the women for yourself?

They weren't judged according to Islamic law though, that was according to Jewish law.. Had they been judged according to Islamic law they'd have been exiled like the other two tribes.

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Soren

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #73 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 3:36pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:59pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm:

Earth to Gandalf. Slaughtering 800 people without trial is collective punishment. You even concede they were punished as a collective, but tried to make a distinction between that and collective punishment, because collective punishment makes it sound bad.

There was a trial, and they were judged according to Jewish law, as they asked for. They even got to choose their own judge.

The 800 males were all fighting aged males that participated in the treason.

....

They weren't judged according to Islamic law though, that was according to Jewish law.. Had they been judged according to Islamic law they'd have been exiled like the other two tribes.

Don't be daft.

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« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2015 at 5:07pm by Soren »

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #74 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 4:40pm freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 1:27pm: I suppose it depends on whether they are legitimate or funny. Can you explain this please?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged