Australian Politics Forum - US Muslims to do more.

issuevoter

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US Muslims to do more.
Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/us/us-muslims-begin-to-publicly-confront-quest...

Here is a link to a New York Times article with the optimistic headline: “US Muslims begin to confront questions on Islam and violence.”

It is primarily to do Bassam Issa of Chattanooga and his views. He is prominent in the local Mosque that supplied the gunman who killed five soldiers recently.

There is no indication in this article that US Muslims are reviewing their beliefs, even if Issa is. Here the article's thesis falls apart, if you consider its elements.

Issa tries to distance his beliefs from hateful passages in the Koran by saying they are taken out of context. At least he does not try the standard faulty translation defence. But he is still using the fallback position of believers, apologists and appeasers.

He says that Muslim violence is political not religious. This old line does nothing in the way of confronting violence from Islam. Again, it is an attempt to take the blame off Islam by putting into a context westerners might hope to believe.

Instead of confronting the root-cause, in effect he says, Not me, I am a real Muslim, and the violent are not.
The article goes on to itemise gestures of concern from the Islamic community.

But Bassam Issa prefaces one comment on Islamic murders with “Every time something like this happens . . .” It is the subtle truth that the problem is not going away in any public relations campaign.

Issa excuses the Koran, by saying its call for violence is only for defence. If anyone believes that they are beyond reform, but Islam itself cannot be reformed without denying the Prophet and the Koran, and then it would not be Islam.

If this article does anything, it shows the editorial policy of the New York Times is to appease Muslims in the hope they might stop murdering infidels. It is a forlorn hope.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #1 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:10am

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am:

Issa excuses the Koran, by saying its call for violence is only for defence. If anyone believes that they are beyond reform, but Islam itself cannot be reformed without denying the Prophet and the Koran, and then it would not be Islam.

We have muslims saying Islam cannot be reformed.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #2 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:15am

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am:

He says that Muslim violence is political not religious. This old line does nothing in the way of confronting violence from Islam.

It is confronting violence from Islam - by asserting that its political not religious.

Just because you don't agree with his theological viewpoint doesn't mean that he is not confronting the problem.

Once again we see the tired old call for "reform" to really mean legitimise and endorse the hateful minority ISIS version of Islam, and reject and mock the overwhelming majority version of a peaceful Islam.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #3 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:17am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:10am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am:

Issa excuses the Koran, by saying its call for violence is only for defence. If anyone believes that they are beyond reform, but Islam itself cannot be reformed without denying the Prophet and the Koran, and then it would not be Islam.

We have muslims saying Islam cannot be reformed.

Islam has already had a "reformation" - and it created the hateful version taken up by Saudi Arabia:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism...

Islam needs the opposite of reform - it needs to go back to its roots.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #4 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:17am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:15am:

Once again we see the tired old call for "reform" to really mean legitimise and endorse the hateful minority ISIS version of Islam, and reject and mock the overwhelming majority version of a peaceful Islam.

The ahamdis tried reforming Islam by dropping the obligation for jihad, they are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms, they cannot even call themselves muslims in Pakistan.

Muhammad Wahhab reformed Islam, to refute Muhammad Wahhab is to refute Islam.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20332 Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #5 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:19am polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:17am: Islam needs the opposite of reform - it needs to go back to its roots. Muhammad Wahhab reformed Islam by taking it back to its roots, is that the reform you are thinking of?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #6 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:23am

Ahmadis are persecuted because they don't acknowledge Muhammad as the last prophet. Not saying its right, but lets not be blatantly misleading Baron. The vast majority of muslims reject violent jihad as set out in the Quran:

Quote:

By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.

5:16

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:17am:

Muhammad Wahhab reformed Islam, to refute Muhammad Wahhab is to refute Islam.

erm you're going to have to explain the logic of that Baron.

Does it go something like this? - Wahhab introduced the violent and intolerant version that I want Islam to be - therefore to refute Wahhab is to refute Islam?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #7 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:28am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:23am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:17am:

Muhammad Wahhab reformed Islam, to refute Muhammad Wahhab is to refute Islam.

erm you're going to have to explain the logic of that Baron.

Does it go something like this? - Wahhab introduced the violent and intolerant version that I want Islam to be - therefore to refute Wahhab is to refute Islam?

Wahhab purified Islam by returning it to what it was in $Profit Mo's day, he did nothing innovative.

Muhammad Wahhab is a respected Islamic scholar what are your credentials Gandalf?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #8 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:21am define "respected" Baron. Wahabism was a fringe and insignificant ideology within Islam, and would have remained so if not for its alliance with the British backed House of Saud, who happened to be sitting on top of the energy centre of the world.
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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #9 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:54am Everything you say about Islam is a pathetic attempt to justify yourself. You converts are to despised more than real Muslims.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #10 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 12:09pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:54am:

Everything you say about Islam is a pathetic attempt to justify yourself. You converts are to despised more than real Muslims.

Yes we know your views issue - you're butt-hurt because you think I'm a race traitor.

Fortunately, most people are not like you - in the real world I'm just a normal person who is respected for what I actually am - not what bigots insist I am.

Apparently I'm such a despicable person "pathetically trying to justify myself" because I insist that the religion I hold is peaceful and just - rather than be a cheerleader for the terrorists. Apparently only if I desist from being an advocate for peace and tolerance will I stop being such a pathetic and despised fake muslim.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #11 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 12:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:15am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am:

He says that Muslim violence is political not religious. This old line does nothing in the way of confronting violence from Islam.

It is confronting violence from Islam - by asserting that its political not religious.

".......its political not religious."
!!!!!!!

gandalf,

Your argument, is that the violence being promoted and enacted in ISLAM's name, .....is really some kind of violent political expression, by a tiny group or groups of moslem IMPERSONATORS ?

To any reasonable person, your proposition must appear to be a lie, and a falsehood.

Why so ?

Because it can be easily demonstrated to any reasonable person, that the ISLAMIC religious violence [which is seen everyday], which is a violence being motivated by ISLAMIC religious bigotry - is both political AND religious in its nature.

Duh, .....many, many Koran verses both sanctify and encourage the political AND religious; "violence from Islam".

To claim that this ISLAMIC violence is not religious based violence [a violence which is being witnessed by all humanity, everyday, and wherever moslems exist and live], is an outright, barefaced lie.

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:15am:

Just because you don't agree with his theological viewpoint doesn't mean that he is not confronting the problem.

Once again we see the tired old call for "reform" to really mean legitimise and endorse the hateful minority ISIS version of Islam, and reject and mock the overwhelming majority version of a peaceful Islam.

".....the overwhelming majority version of a peaceful Islam."

Where is it gandalf ?

Where is the majority peaceful version of ISLAM, being practiced, today ?

And where are all of the schools of ISLAMIC jurisprudence, .....which teach this peaceful and tolerant ISLAM, which in your post, you assert is real and exists in the world.

gandalf,

As a counter argument;

Isn't it true that -mainstream- ISLAM teaches religious intolerance and religious bigotry ?

e.g.
All major schools of Sunni ISLAMIC jurisprudence state, and teach their moslem students, that the apostate is to be put to death.

Google;
major schools of ISLAMIC jurisprudence, apostate, be put to death

.

Go on gandalf, defend your faith on this forum.

Prove to everyone who reads this thread, that all of the critics, of your ISLAM, are in error.

And prove to everyone who reads this thread that ".....the overwhelming majority version of a peaceful Islam."
actually exists, ......somewhere!

gandalf,

Direct us all, to the online pages, of the many schools of ISLAMIC jurisprudence, which clearly show the pages, and pages authentic ISLAMIC theological script, which is the influence and guidance of your peaceful and tolerant ISLAM.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #12 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 12:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 12:09pm:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:54am:

Everything you say about Islam is a pathetic attempt to justify yourself. You converts are to despised more than real Muslims.

Yes we know your views issue - you're butt-hurt because you think I'm a race traitor.

Fortunately, most people are not like you - in the real world

I'm just a normal person who is respected for what I actually am - not what bigots insist I am.

[For.....] What you actually are ?

I always thought that, if a person self declares to be a moslem, ....then that person actually regarded himself as a moslem.

.

My own proposition and belief, .....is that;

Every moslem, is a moslem.

That is, that every moslem, who self-declares, and who insists, that he is a moslem,    .....is a person who is declaring that he chooses to follow and support ISLAM's teaching.

And that as a moslem,    ....he/she thereby, is choosing to endorse and support the declared tenets and laws of ISLAM.

That is what a moslem is.       .....imo.

.

THE KORAN....

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

ISLAMIC LAW....

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #13 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:00pm

The thing is that it is all about terminology. Muslims believe that Islam is perfect because it is from God and thus it doesn't require reformation.

What can be reformed however are the interpretations of Islam by fallible human Muslim scholars who interpret the religion based on the context of the time and place in which they exist, such as the political and socio-economic situation of the lands that they are in.

So certainly, Muslims need to be reformed and actually, there was quite a bit of reformation of the schools of thought in Islam during the Tanzimat in the Ottoman Empire and a great deal of progression had been made, however thanks to your imperialist ancestors invading the Ottoman Empire and breaking it up, the clock was reset.

The more radical forms of interpretation that came into existence were themselves based on the context of the their time and place, which just happened to in colonized lands wanting the shackles of British and French colonization lifted off of them.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41271 Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #14 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:55pm issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 11:54am: Everything you say about Islam is a pathetic attempt to justify yourself. You converts are to despised more than real Muslims. yes, gandalf is just another muzzie protecting every other muzzie, using whatever they can in the process. islams a disgusting cult.
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