Australian Politics Forum - US Muslims to do more.

Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #30 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:24am:

Is a version of Islam I reject, obviously. Who do you think is more useful in bringing an end to Islamic terrorism FD - the muslim who campaigns for a peaceful Islam and denounces violence in its name - or the muslim who adheres to the "hateful warmongering" version? For some reason you insist on this double act of criticising the violent nature of Islam *AND* mocking the muslims who want to stop it.

Don't forget criticizing Muslims for not doing enough to stop it.

Nothing will ever be good enough.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52415 At my desk.	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #31 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:39am Yes. Muslims are the eternal victims. How dare people suggest they do more, merely because of the rising tide of Islamic terrorism?
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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #32 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:55am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

So the terrorists were created by our interference in the middle east (and have nothing to do with Islam), and the solution is to interfere in the middle east?

Islam is primarily used by terrorist organizations to encourage and motivate their flocks to have no fear against a bigger and more technologically advanced army. However, the justifications used to commit terrorism are not based on Islam so much are they are based on political grievances with the West and the perceived wrongs that they feel have been committed against them by the West.

That is not as much the case with ISIL, where they have began to use Islam itself as the justification to fight against the West with the intention to impose a global caliphate on the world. This is very different than Al Qaeda and other organizations.

Though their justification for attacking civilians comes from their perception that the West is killing civilians in the swath of land that they essentially control.

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« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:08am by Lafayette »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #33 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:14am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:35am:

Quote:

Is a version of Islam I reject, obviously. Who do you think is more useful in bringing an end to Islamic terrorism FD - the muslim who campaigns for a peaceful Islam and denounces violence in its name - or the muslim who adheres to the "hateful warmongering" version? For some reason you insist on this double act of criticising the violent nature of Islam *AND* mocking the muslims who want to stop it.

False dichotomy.

The question is not a false dichotomy - I'd be interested in your answer.

Also you do criticise the violent nature of Islam and mock muslims who want to stop it. Not sure where the false dichotomy comes into it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #34 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:17am Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am: Don't forget criticizing Muslims for not doing enough to stop it. Actually that wouldn't be so bad - if they didn't simultaneously insist that nothing short of renouncing Islam completely would satisfy.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

...

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #35 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:20am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:17am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

Don't forget criticizing Muslims for not doing enough to stop it.

Actually that wouldn't be so bad - if they didn't simultaneously insist that nothing short of renouncing Islam completely would satisfy.

Well what was it that made you think "hey this Islam bizzo sounds like the real deal - I think I'm gonna buy into it".

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In the fullness of time...

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #36 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:30am

... wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:20am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:17am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

Don't forget criticizing Muslims for not doing enough to stop it.

Actually that wouldn't be so bad - if they didn't simultaneously insist that nothing short of renouncing Islam completely would satisfy.

Well what was it that made you think "hey this Islam bizzo sounds like the real deal - I think I'm gonna buy into it".

Actually gaining a proper understanding of it.

But its irrelevant - the point is you have muslims, you always will have muslims, and insisting that the only way to "reform" Islam is for all 1.5 billion adherents to drop it, just aint a viable proposal.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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...

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #37 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:34am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:30am:

... wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:20am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:17am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am:

Don't forget criticizing Muslims for not doing enough to stop it.

Actually that wouldn't be so bad - if they didn't simultaneously insist that nothing short of renouncing Islam completely would satisfy.

Well what was it that made you think "hey this Islam bizzo sounds like the real deal - I think I'm gonna buy into it".

Actually gaining a proper understanding of it.

But its irrelevant - the point is you have muslims, you always will have muslims, and insisting that the only way to "reform" Islam is for all 1.5 billion adherents to drop it, just aint a viable proposal.

Not all 1.5 billion adherents, just the ones who Wish it was something else. That'd be you and maybe 100 million other "Moslems".

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In the fullness of time...

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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #38 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:35am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:55am:

However, the justifications used to commit terrorism are not based on Islam so much are they are based on political grievances with the West and the perceived wrongs that they feel have been committed against them by the West.

Just for a laugh, this is the same FD 8 years ago:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:48pm:

While this is a genuine problem at the moment, not every modern terrorist is a muslim and historically they are no different from any other group. The problem with linking it to Islam is that it suggests that Islam must be either destroyed or contained in order to protect ourselves. You know where that leads...

It would be more accurate and more useful to say that most current terrorist attacks or by people from the middle east or by people responding to the current situation in the middle east. It is not Islam that breeds terrorism, but political upheaval and the middle east is where most of the world's political problems currently are. As with most of these problems it can be traced back to past historical events, most of them during or immediately after WWII.

Pointing the finger at Islam is an association fallacy. It assumes that Islam is the cause of the violence merely because it is associated with the violence. This is just like saying that any other religion is inherently violent because at some time in history violent acts were committed in it's territory or in it's name on a large and organised scale.

Pointing the finger at Islam will inevitably perpetuate the violence. Ending the violence is a far more complicated process that will never be achieved while we grasp for overly simplistic explanations and solutions to our problems.

This is why DT can easily provide evidence to back up his views, but is unable to turn this into suggestions for ending the violence. He baulked last time he was asked to do this and continued trying to prove that Islam is inherently violent while ignoring the real question that was asked - 'what should we do to end the violence?'

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #39 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:36am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:30am:

But its irrelevant - the point is you have muslims, you always will have muslims, and insisting that the only way to "reform" Islam is for all 1.5 billion adherents to drop it, just aint a viable proposal.

That is precisely correct. That is the difference between the right wing religious extremists who basically want to make this about a war between Islam and the Wests and the rationalists who want to fight religious extremists and terrorists.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #40 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:38am Correct Laf - the extreme right know its totally unviable and thats the way they like it, since NOT having a viable solution is precisely what they want - endless war, endless hate - without it their lives would have no meaning.
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #41 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:42am Circle jerk alert.
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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #42 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:45am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:38am:

Correct Laf - the extreme right know its totally unviable and thats the way they like it, since *NOT* having a viable solution is precisely what they want - endless war, endless hate - without it their lives would have no meaning.

This is why I love the US, because protections were put in place by the Founding Fathers to prevent this whereas Australia doesn't have those protections.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #43 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:46am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:35am:

Just for a laugh, this is the same FD 8 years ago:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2007 at 12:48pm:

While this is a genuine problem at the moment, not every modern terrorist is a muslim and historically they are no different from any other group. The problem with linking it to Islam is that it suggests that Islam must be either destroyed or contained in order to protect ourselves. You know where that leads...

It would be more accurate and more useful to say that most current terrorist attacks or by people from the middle east or by people responding to the current situation in the middle east. It is not Islam that breeds terrorism, but political upheaval and the middle east is where most of the world's political problems currently are. As with most of these problems it can be traced back to past historical events, most of them during or immediately after WWII.

Pointing the finger at Islam is an association fallacy. It assumes that Islam is the cause of the violence merely because it is associated with the violence. This is just like saying that any other religion is inherently violent because at some time in history violent acts were committed in it's territory or in it's name on a large and organised scale.

Pointing the finger at Islam will inevitably perpetuate the violence. Ending the violence is a far more complicated process that will never be achieved while we grasp for overly simplistic explanations and solutions to our problems.

This is why DT can easily provide evidence to back up his views, but is unable to turn this into suggestions for ending the violence. He baulked last time he was asked to do this and continued trying to prove that Islam is inherently violent while ignoring the real question that was asked - 'what should we do to end the violence?'

So basically FD knows the truth but is just being a troll?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #44 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 10:50am FD saw the light. He now blames Islam - on everything.
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