Australian Politics Forum - US Muslims to do more.

Sprintcyclist

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #15 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:58pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:00pm:

The thing is that it is all about terminology. Muslims believe that Islam is perfect because it is from God and thus it doesn't require reformation.

What can be reformed however are the interpretations of Islam by fallible human Muslim scholars who interpret the religion based on the context of the time and place in which they exist, such as the political and socio-economic situation of the lands that they are in.

So certainly, Muslims need to be reformed and actually, there was quite a bit of reformation of the schools of thought in Islam during the Tanzimat in the Ottoman Empire and a great deal of progression had been made, however thanks to your imperialist ancestors invading the Ottoman Empire and breaking it up, the clock was reset.

The more radical forms of interpretation that came into existence were themselves based on the context of the their time and place, which just happened to in colonized lands wanting the shackles of British and French colonization lifted off of them.

well, what balderdash.
islam was birthed and grew by bloodshed.

if the death cult islam is perfect, it cannot be in any way 'reformed'.
the extremists have spend decades interpreting the koran, the worst book in the world ever,

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freediver

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #16 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:40pm

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/us/us-muslims-begin-to-publicly-confront-quest...

Here is a link to a New York Times article with the optimistic headline: “US Muslims begin to confront questions on Islam and violence.”

It is primarily to do Bassam Issa of Chattanooga and his views. He is prominent in the local Mosque that supplied the gunman who killed five soldiers recently.

There is no indication in this article that US Muslims are reviewing their beliefs, even if Issa is. Here the article's thesis falls apart, if you consider its elements.

Issa tries to distance his beliefs from hateful passages in the Koran by saying they are taken out of context. At least he does not try the standard faulty translation defence. But he is still using the fallback position of believers, apologists and appeasers.

He says that Muslim violence is political not religious. This old line does nothing in the way of confronting violence from Islam. Again, it is an attempt to take the blame off Islam by putting into a context westerners might hope to believe.

Instead of confronting the root-cause, in effect he says, Not me, I am a real Muslim, and the violent are not.
The article goes on to itemise gestures of concern from the Islamic community.

But Bassam Issa prefaces one comment on Islamic murders with “Every time something like this happens . . .” It is the subtle truth that the problem is not going away in any public relations campaign.

Issa excuses the Koran, by saying its call for violence is only for defence. If anyone believes that they are beyond reform, but Islam itself cannot be reformed without denying the Prophet and the Koran, and then it would not be Islam.

If this article does anything, it shows the editorial policy of the New York Times is to appease Muslims in the hope they might stop murdering infidels. It is a forlorn hope.

Gandalf likes to present an image of a progressive Muslim reformer. He has different views to people like Australia's Grand Mufti, who prefer to present an image of Islam without need for reform.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #17 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:58pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:00pm:

The thing is that it is all about terminology. Muslims believe that Islam is perfect because it is from God and thus it doesn't require reformation.

What can be reformed however are the interpretations of Islam by fallible human Muslim scholars who interpret the religion based on the context of the time and place in which they exist, such as the political and socio-economic situation of the lands that they are in.

So certainly, Muslims need to be reformed and actually, there was quite a bit of reformation of the schools of thought in Islam during the Tanzimat in the Ottoman Empire and a great deal of progression had been made, however thanks to your imperialist ancestors invading the Ottoman Empire and breaking it up, the clock was reset.

The more radical forms of interpretation that came into existence were themselves based on the context of the their time and place, which just happened to in colonized lands wanting the shackles of British and French colonization lifted off of them.

Typical muslim victim mentality in blaming the French and british for fundamental Islam, muslims never do anything wrong it's always someone else's fault.

The first Saudi state predates the collapse of the Ottoman empire.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Saud

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #18 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 10:06pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:58pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:00pm:

The thing is that it is all about terminology. Muslims believe that Islam is perfect because it is from God and thus it doesn't require reformation.

What can be reformed however are the interpretations of Islam by fallible human Muslim scholars who interpret the religion based on the context of the time and place in which they exist, such as the political and socio-economic situation of the lands that they are in.

So certainly, Muslims need to be reformed and actually, there was quite a bit of reformation of the schools of thought in Islam during the Tanzimat in the Ottoman Empire and a great deal of progression had been made,

however thanks to your imperialist ancestors invading the Ottoman Empire and breaking it up, the clock was reset.

The more radical forms of interpretation that came into existence were themselves based on the context of the their time and place, which just happened to in colonized lands wanting the shackles of British and French colonization lifted off of them.

Typical muslim victim mentality in blaming the French and british for fundamental Islam, muslims never do anything wrong it's always someone else's fault.

Snap! [i.e. what i 'picked up on' too, in Lafayette's post, and explanation of, 'why moslems do anything wrong'.]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #19 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:03am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:58pm:

Typical muslim victim mentality in blaming the French and british for fundamental Islam, muslims never do anything wrong it's always someone else's fault.

The first Saudi state predates the collapse of the Ottoman empire.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_bin_Saud

And who supported and propped up the Al Saud's to fight against the Ottoman Empire and establish the ass backwards theocratic state we have today? It was the BRITISH! Just like the BRITISH supported Islamic extremists in Iran to overthrow Mossadeq in Iran and even more recently in Libya to overthrow Gaddafi.

I'm not saying that the terrorists and extremists have no responsibility in their actions. They clearly do, but I'll put it like this, if you raise a dog to be mean and aggressive to attack people you don't like, then you shouldn't be too surprised when that dog bites your kids. That doesn't mean you shouldn't put that dog down, but you just shouldn't be surprised.

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« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:14am by Lafayette »

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #20 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 6:58am And we will put the barbarian Muslim dogs down, just give us a bit of time. Theres a nice ham bone to chew on seeing it's Christmas, the season to celebrate western christian civilisation.
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freediver

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #21 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:59am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:00pm:

The more radical forms of interpretation that came into existence were themselves based on the context of the their time and place, which just happened to in colonized lands wanting the shackles of British and French colonization lifted off of them.

So the west is to blame for Islamic terrorism, which has nothing to do with Islam?

Sounds like a return to Islam's roots. Did you know that Muhammed himself was a perpetual victim?

Quote:

I'm not saying that the terrorists and extremists have no responsibility in their actions. They clearly do, but I'll put it like this, if you raise a dog to be mean and aggressive to attack people you don't like, then you shouldn't be too surprised when that dog bites your kids. That doesn't mean you shouldn't put that dog down, but you just shouldn't be surprised.

So the British raised Islam? Or raised Muslims? Are they our children? Or pets? At what point do Muslims become people rather than dogs who can take responsibility for their own actions?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 9:15am:

issuevoter wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 8:14am:

He says that Muslim violence is political not religious. This old line does nothing in the way of confronting violence from Islam.

It is confronting violence from Islam - by asserting that its political not religious.

Does Islam make a distinction between political and religious Gandalf?

Quote:

Once again we see the tired old call for "reform" to really mean legitimise and endorse the hateful minority ISIS version of Islam, and reject and mock the overwhelming majority version of a peaceful Islam.

What about the hateful warmongering Muhammed version of Islam? There is no shortage of Muslims with very backwards views Gandalf. Ever been to Malaysia?

Quote:

Islam has already had a "reformation" - and it created the hateful version taken up by Saudi Arabia:

Sounds tired and old to me.

Quote:

Islam needs the opposite of reform - it needs to go back to its roots.

Except for the whole rape and pillage thing, right? We must pick out the more cogent utterings of Muhammed and ignore the rest, then tell all the non-Muslims that is the real Islam.

Quote:

Ahmadis are persecuted because they don't acknowledge Muhammad as the last prophet. Not saying its right, but lets not be blatantly misleading Baron. The vast majority of muslims reject violent jihad as set out in the Quran:

It's a shame no-one told Muhammed about that. We could have avoided the whole embarrassing 1400 year affair.

Quote:

Wahabism was a fringe and insignificant ideology within Islam, and would have remained so if not for its alliance with the British backed House of Saud, who happened to be sitting on top of the energy centre of the world.

You need to coordinate your spin better with lafayette. He is saying it was born to throw off the shackles of western interference. Are Muslims mistreated dogs biting their owner, or glorious liberators fighting the good fight?

Quote:

Apparently I'm such a despicable person "pathetically trying to justify myself" because I insist that the religion I hold is peaceful and just - rather than be a cheerleader for the terrorists. Apparently only if I desist from being an advocate for peace and tolerance will I stop being such a pathetic and despised fake muslim.

False dichotomy.

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« Last Edit: Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:11am by freediver »

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #22 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:10am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:59am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:00pm:

The more radical forms of interpretation that came into existence were themselves based on the context of the their time and place, which just happened to in colonized lands wanting the shackles of British and French colonization lifted off of them.

So the west is to blame for Islamic terrorism, which has nothing to do with Islam?

Sounds like a return to Islam's roots. Did you know that Muhammed himself was a perpetual victim?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? The only people responsible for the killing of innocent people, are the people that kill innocent people. There may be factors that contribute to radicalization that we can change from our own policies but it doesn't mean that we let them get away with it.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52415 At my desk.	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #23 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:12am So how should we 'not let them get away with it'?
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #24 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:16am Give them a stern talking to.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52415 At my desk.	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #25 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:22am Perhaps Lafayette means staying out of middle eastern 'politics'.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #26 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:24am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:59am:

What about the hateful warmongering Muhammed version of Islam?

Is a version of Islam I reject, obviously. Who do you think is more useful in bringing an end to Islamic terrorism FD - the muslim who campaigns for a peaceful Islam and denounces violence in its name - or the muslim who adheres to the "hateful warmongering" version? For some reason you insist on this double act of criticising the violent nature of Islam *AND* mocking the muslims who want to stop it.

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 8:59am:

You need to coordinate your spin better with lafayette. He is saying it was born to throw off the shackles of western interference. Are Muslims mistreated dogs biting their owner, or glorious liberators fighting the good fight?

Speaking of spin Grin

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #27 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:35am

Quote:

Is a version of Islam I reject, obviously. Who do you think is more useful in bringing an end to Islamic terrorism FD - the muslim who campaigns for a peaceful Islam and denounces violence in its name - or the muslim who adheres to the "hateful warmongering" version? For some reason you insist on this double act of criticising the violent nature of Islam *AND* mocking the muslims who want to stop it.

False dichotomy.

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Lafayette

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Re: US Muslims to do more.
Reply #28 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:36am

freediver wrote on Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:12am:

So how should we 'not let them get away with it'?

That depends on the circumstances of where they are. If we can capture them and haul them before a court to answer for their crimes then we do so. If they're a part of an armed force that is there to fight then we kill them.

No one gets a free pass just because they disagree with our foreign policy.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52415 At my desk.	Re: US Muslims to do more. Reply #29 - Dec 24^th, 2015 at 9:38am So the terrorists were created by our interference in the middle east (and have nothing to do with Islam), and the solution is to interfere in the middle east?
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