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Can you support atrocities and human rights? (Read 41589 times)
polite_gandalf
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Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Aug 14th, 2015 at 11:05am
 
I asked this question in a different thread, but didn't get any traction.

Perhaps it was in the wrong discussion, or I phrased it wrong. Its a shame because I think its a genuinely useful thing to discuss - just as a general principle.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are relevant episodes here: tens of thousands of innocent men women and children were deliberately targeted and killed in order to bring about the end to a war.

There is no doubt that many people who profess to stand up for modern western principles of human rights also believe that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified - and that the two beliefs are not incompatible.

I am interested in people's thoughts in terms of the general principle - namely can you  support the deliberate mass slaughter of innocents (some might call it 'atrocities') and still profess to stand up for modern western principles of human rights? This is not an issue of whether you think they are "right" or "wrong" - but whether you accept that someone can be sincere in the belief in the two, and sincere in the belief that the two are compatible.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #1 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 11:11am
 
Time, space.....context is everything Gandalf.

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polite_gandalf
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #2 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 11:34am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 11:11am:
Time, space.....context is everything Gandalf.



Ok then, let me put it this way: if someone came up to you and said they believed the deliberate mass slaughter of 10s of thousands of innocent women and children at Hiroshima (they probably wouldn't phrase it that way, but it is what it is) was justified (for whatever reason) - *AND* that they also believed in western notions of human rights - would you accept their sincerity?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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John Smith
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #3 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 11:51am
 
your question covers both camps

the libs support atrocities, the left support human rights

Cheesy Cheesy
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freediver
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #4 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 12:47pm
 
I wouldn't say I believe they were justified, but I am open to the pragmatic argument that it was the best option available.
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Yadda
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #5 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 1:01pm
 


Shouldn't we have definitions, of those terms ?

'Atrocities', and 'human rights' ?


Because, what is to one group of men, an awful atrocity,           is to another group of men, a lawful action, in merely seeking to protect the status quo [of their own group].



.



SCENARIO;
If someone [anyone!] tried to murder me, would i kill ['murder'] him, especially to prevent him from killing me ?

Yes, i would kill him.

And i would be justified [imo].




BELOW;
We have two examples of lawful justifications for 'murder'.

Which example of reasoning for a 'just killing' of another, would you support ?

Neither ?




.




ISLAMIC LAW....

"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06





.




Natural Law....

Quote:

"16.  The state of war is a state of enmity and destruction; and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but sedate, settled design upon another man's life puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other's power to be taken away by him, or any one that joins with him in his defence, and espouses his quarrel; it being reasonable and just I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction; for by the fundamental law of Nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred, and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being, for the same reason that he may kill a wolf or a lion, because they are not under the ties of the common law of reason, have no other rule but that of force and violence, and so may be treated as a beast of prey, those dangerous and noxious creatures that will be sure to destroy him whenever he falls into their power. 
17.  And hence it is that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom- i.e.  make me a slave..."

Of the State of War



John Locke (1632-1704)





.




Men will always be in conflict,
         because every man holds [recognises] different 'justifications' for the murder of another person, to be valid [for his particular conscience].

e.g.

By moslem law [Sharia] and cultural tenets, every infidel [who rejects ISLAM] is committing a serious crime [which is worthy of death].

But by Western notions of justice and truth,      it is ISLAM and those who follow its teachings, and who seek to spread it, who are guilty of the intent to commit serious crimes,    against their fellow man [because he rejects ISLAM].


The moslem notion of right and wrong;
ISLAM and ISLAMIC law is correct, and all Western [manmade] laws are corrupt.


The Western citizens notion [perhaps] of right and wrong;
All men ought to be treated equally under/before the laws of the land [and those who break our laws need to be censured and punished].


Result;
There will always be conflict, between differing groups of men, because they have each chosen to follow/embrace a differing philosophy [concerning what the laws of men ought to be, and what those laws ought to require].



Is it an atrocity, to destroy those [a society of men and women, and children] who are seeking your destruction ?



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Mattyfisk
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #6 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 5:17pm
 
It depends on objectives and intentions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were about showing off to the Soviets, not the Japanese. I doubt everybody in the US forces knew this plan at the time, so there were clearly competing objectives.

More recently, the invasion of Iraq was about oil security and establishing a US foothold in the Middle East. It had nothing to do with Freeeeeedom and democracy. I'd say everybody knew this at the fighting, if not the operational, level. If you've ever read Jarhead (about the first Gulf War), the Marines knew what a crock it all was. 19 year old Soldiers aren't as dumb as everyone thinks they are.

D Day was about liberating Western Europe. Sure, there was some urgency as the Soviets were coming in from the east, but the intentions were sincere. This was a just invasion, as was the allied campaign in the Pacific.

If you want a basis for ethics, the Kantian one is still good. Look at the intention of the action. Discover the motives. I doubt this approach will ever go out of style, given it was also articulated by the Buddha, Jesus, and if I'm not mistaken, Muhammed.
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #7 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 5:26pm
 
It depends on objectives and intentions. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were about showing off to the Soviets By Ms Knowledge.


You obviously weren't  one of the people  getting ready to storm Japanese beaches.
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #8 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 5:40pm
 
Quote:
It had nothing to do with Freeeeeedom and democracy.


Did they not intend to set up a democracy?
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #9 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 5:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 12:47pm:
I wouldn't say I believe they were justified, but I am open to the pragmatic argument that it was the best option available.


At that time, it was indeed the best option available under the circumstances.

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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #10 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 5:51pm
 

I can see why it got no traction.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #11 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 6:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 5:40pm:
Quote:
It had nothing to do with Freeeeeedom and democracy.


Did they not intend to set up a democracy?


Actually no.

If you look at the way the Bremer regime started off, it becomes very clear that the original intention was to set up a sham of a democracy and parachute their exiled stooges in to run the government. It was only after the shiites came out on the streets in their hundreds of thousands that the Americans finally started to reconsider their original plan.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Lord Herbert
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #12 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 6:44pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 11:05am:
Hiroshima and Nagasaki are relevant episodes here: tens of thousands of innocent men women and children were deliberately targeted and killed in order to bring about the end to a war.


Dear Jesus, you've got it wrong right from the very start.

It was the cities that were targetted for total destruction - not the people.

Same with Dresden.

Killing any number of civilians would not have had any bearing on persuading these military dictatorships to surrender unconditionally.Tojo's mob couldn't give a rat's arse about civilian casualties.

If the allies could have personally escorted the citizens away from the drop-zones, they would have.

Please stop inventing fanciful scenarios, gandalf.

Tojo had already announced that the Japanese people would fight to the last soldier and civilian if the allies made landfall on Japanese soil.


link

link






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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #13 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 7:17pm
 
Quote:
If you look at the way the Bremer regime started off


Do you need to look at it a special way Gandalf? Is this like my skills at saying things without actually saying them?
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Re: Can you support atrocities and human rights?
Reply #14 - Aug 14th, 2015 at 8:08pm
 
Lord Herbert wrote on Aug 14th, 2015 at 6:44pm:
Tojo had already announced that the Japanese people would fight to the last soldier and civilian if the allies made landfall on Japanese soil.


You do realise that Hideki Tojo had been dismissed as Prime Minister of Japan on July 22, 1944, don't you, Herbie?   Roll Eyes
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