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Complex systems can't be calculated.. (Read 806 times)
BatteriesNotIncluded
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Complex systems can't be calculated..
Jul 30th, 2015 at 5:43pm
 
..that's why you are told not to try and pick the top and bottom of the market.

It's time the conversation grew some impetus! The world is at stake!!

http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/15/20059/2015/acpd-15-20059-2015.pdf (took ages to load- could be big!)
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« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2015 at 5:59pm by BatteriesNotIncluded »  

*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #1 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 6:17pm
 
5.3 CO2 as climate control knob


CO2 is the principal determinant of Earth’s climate state, the “control knob” that sets global mean temperature (Lacis et al., 2010, 2013).


source: from the OP!!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #2 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 6:37pm
 
8 Summary implications
Humanity faces near certainty of eventual sea level rise of at least Eemian proportions,
5–9 m, if fossil fuel emissions continue on a business-as-usual course, e.g., IPCC scenario
A1B that has CO2 ∼ 700 ppm in 2100 (Fig. S21). It is unlikely that coastal cities
or low-lying areas such as Bangladesh, European lowlands, and large portions of the
United States eastern coast and northeast China plains (Fig. S22) could be protected
against such large sea level rise.
Rapid large sea level rise may begin sooner than generally assumed. Amplifying
feedbacks, including slowdown of SMOC and cooling of the near-Antarctic ocean surface
with increasing sea ice, may spur nonlinear growth of Antarctic ice sheet mass
loss. Deep submarine valleys in West Antarctica and the Wilkes Basin of East Antarctica,
each with access to ice amounting to several meters of sea level, provide gateways
to the ocean. If the Southern Ocean forcing (subsurface warming) of the Antarctic ice
sheets continues to grow, it likely will become impossible to avoid sea level rise of
several meters, with the largest uncertainty being how rapidly it will occur.

The Greenland ice sheet does not have as much ice subject to rapid nonlinear disintegration,
so the speed at which it adds to 21st century sea level rise may be limited.
However, even a slower Greenland ice sheet response is expected to be faster than
carbon cycle or ocean thermal recovery times. Therefore, if climate forcing continues
to grow rapidly, amplifying feedbacks will assure large eventual mass loss. Also with
present growth of freshwater injection from Greenland, in combination with increasing
North Atlantic precipitation, we already may be on the verge of substantial North
Atlantic climate disruption.
Storms conjoin with sea level rise to cause the most devastating coastal damage.
End-Eemian and projected 21st century conditions are similar in having warm tropics
and increased freshwater injection. Our simulations imply increasing storm strengths
for such situations, as a stronger temperature gradient caused by ice melt increases
baroclinicity and provides energy for more severe weather events. A strengthened
Bermuda High in the warm season increases prevailing northeasterlies that can help
account for stronger end-Eemian storms. Weakened cold season sea level pressure
south of Greenland favors occurrence of atmospheric blocking that can increase wintertime
Arctic cold air intrusions into northern midlatitudes.
Effects of freshwater injection and resulting ocean stratification are occurring sooner
in the real world than in our model. We suggest that this is an effect of excessive small
scale mixing in our model that limits stratification, a problem that may exist in other
models (Hansen et al., 2011). We encourage similar simulations with other models,
with special attention to the model’s ability to maintain realistic stratification and perturbations.
This issue may be addressed in our model with increased vertical resolution,
more accurate finite differencing method in ocean dynamics that reduces noise, and
use of a smaller background diffusivity.
There are many other practical impacts of continued high fossil fuel emissions via climate
change and ocean acidification, including irreplaceable loss of many species, as
reviewed elsewhere (IPCC, 2013, 2014; Hansen et al., 2013a). However, sea level rise
sets the lowest limit on allowable human-made climate forcing and CO2
, because of the

extreme sensitivity of sea level to ocean warming and the devastating economic and
humanitarian impacts of a multi-meter sea level rise. Ice sheet response time is shorter
than the time for natural geologic processes to remove CO2
from the climate system,
so there is no morally defensible excuse to delay phase-out of fossil fuel emissions as
rapidly as possible.
We conclude that the 2 ◦C global warming “guardrail”, affirmed in the Copenhagen
Accord (2009), does not provide safety, as such warming would likely yield sea level
rise of several meters along with numerous other severely disruptive consequences for
human society and ecosystems. The Eemian, less than 2 ◦C warmer than pre-industrial
Earth, itself provides a clear indication of the danger, even though the orbital drive for
Eemian warming differed from today’s human-made climate forcing. Ongoing changes
in the Southern Ocean, while global warming is less than 1 ◦C, provide a strong warning,
as observed changes tend to confirm the mechanisms amplifying change. Predicted
effects, such as cooling of the surface ocean around Antarctica, are occurring
even faster than modeled.
Our finding of global cooling from ice melt calls into question whether global temperature
is the most fundamental metric for global climate in the 21st century. The first
order requirement to stabilize climate is to remove Earth’s energy imbalance, which is
now about +0.6 W m−2
, more energy coming in than going out. If other forcings are
unchanged, removing this imbalance requires reducing atmospheric CO2
from ∼ 400
to ∼ 350 ppm (Hansen et al., 2008, 2013a).
The message that the climate science delivers to policymakers, instead of defining
a safe “guardrail”, is that fossil fuel CO2 emissions must be reduced as rapidly as
practical. Hansen et al. (2013a) conclude that this implies a need for a rising carbon
fee or tax, an approach that has the potential to be near-global, as opposed to national
caps or goals for emissio..
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #3 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 6:38pm
 
(continued)

.. as opposed to national
caps or goals for emission reductions. Although a carbon fee is the sine qua non for
phasing out emissions, the urgency of slowing emissions also implies other needs
including widespread technical cooperation in clean energy technologies (Hansen et
al., 2013a).


The task of achieving a reduction of atmospheric CO2
is formidable, but not impossible.
Rapid transition to abundant affordable carbon-free electricity is the core requirement,
as that would also permit production of net-zero-carbon liquid fuels from electricity.
The rate at which CO2 emissions must be reduced is about 6 % yr−1
to reach
350 ppm atmospheric CO2 by about 2100, under the assumption that improved agricultural
and forestry practices could sequester 100 GtC (Hansen et al., 2013a). The
amount of CO2
fossil fuel emissions taken up by the ocean, soil and biosphere has
continued to increase (Fig. S23), thus providing hope that it may be possible to sequester
more than 100 GtC. Improved understanding of the carbon cycle and non-CO2
forcings are needed, but it is clear that the essential requirement is to begin to phase
down fossil fuel CO2 emissions rapidly. It is also clear that continued high emissions
are likely to lock-in continued global energy imbalance, ocean warming, ice sheet disintegration,
and large sea level rise, which young people and future generations would
not be able to avoid. Given the inertia of the climate and energy systems, and the grave
threat posed by continued high emissions, the matter is urgent and calls for emergency
cooperation among nations.
The Supplement related to this article is available online at
doi:10.5194/acpd-15-20059-2015-supplement.

source: same as OP!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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lee
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #4 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 7:17pm
 
'Complex systems can't be calculated.'

But have we got a scary story for you.
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #5 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:30pm
 
lee wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 7:17pm:
'Complex systems can't be calculated.'

But have we got a scary story for you.

Yes, apparently climate change is definately not a problem  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Ajax
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CO2 has never controlled
temperature on Earth

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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #6 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:24pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:30pm:
lee wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 7:17pm:
'Complex systems can't be calculated.'

But have we got a scary story for you.

Yes, apparently climate change is definately not a problem  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Get your facts right mutley, climate change has always been here on Earth. and not much can be done about it.

What we're disputing is Anthropogenic Global Warming.

AGW.......??????????
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1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax
2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery &  prison" Regas Feraeos
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #7 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:32pm
 
Ajax wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:24pm:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:30pm:
lee wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 7:17pm:
'Complex systems can't be calculated.'

But have we got a scary story for you.

Yes, apparently climate change is definately not a problem  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Get your facts right mutley, climate change has always been here on Earth. and not much can be done about it.

What we're disputing is Anthropogenic Global Warming.

AGW.......??????????

Rates of change: yes, I know a bit more than you buddy!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #8 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:45pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:32pm:
Ajax wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:24pm:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:30pm:
lee wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 7:17pm:
'Complex systems can't be calculated.'

But have we got a scary story for you.

Yes, apparently climate change is definately not a problem  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Get your facts right mutley, climate change has always been here on Earth. and not much can be done about it.

What we're disputing is Anthropogenic Global Warming.

AGW.......??????????

Rates of change: yes, I know a bit more than you buddy!



And exactly WHAT is the difference with the current 'rates of change' as compared to the previous ones??? (and refusal to actually answer is an admission that you don't actually know)
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Chimp_Logic
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #9 - Aug 4th, 2015 at 11:43pm
 
Ajax wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:24pm:
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:30pm:
lee wrote on Jul 30th, 2015 at 7:17pm:
'Complex systems can't be calculated.'

But have we got a scary story for you.

Yes, apparently climate change is definately not a problem  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Get your facts right mutley, climate change has always been here on Earth. and not much can be done about it.

What we're disputing is Anthropogenic Global Warming.

AGW.......??????????


So if humans ramped the CO2 level in the earth's atmosphere to 1000 ppmv and then to 10,000 ppmv by burning fossil fuels and deforestation etc, there would be no effect on global systems such as climate??

Have you found a climate model that predicts static or decreasing global temperatures as CO2 level rises in the earth's atmosphere?

Have a look around and get back to me Batman

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness
 
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lee
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Re: Complex systems can't be calculated..
Reply #10 - Aug 5th, 2015 at 11:15am
 
Chimp_Logic wrote on Aug 4th, 2015 at 11:43pm:
So if humans ramped the CO2 level in the earth's atmosphere to 1000 ppmv and then to 10,000 ppmv by burning fossil fuels and deforestation etc, there would be no effect on global systems such as climate??



You need to do some research. Even the IPCC's RCP 8.5 is unachievable.

You forgot to explain the rate of change in the early 20th Century.
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