Australian Politics Forum - islam=fraud and lying

FD

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #195 - Nov 21^st, 2014 at 8:58pm

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 5:35pm:

Yes, Moses, it’s the best I can do. The Koran is tame in comparison to the Old Testament. You’d know this if you read them.

No religious Jews I know are refuting the Torah, Do you know any? They believe it’s the immutable law for all time.

You use one principle for the Muslims and another for the Jews. Essentially, your argument comes down to "but the Jews aren’t the ones going around killing people".

Very true.

But somehow, despite this, they hold a tyrannical horror story as their religious text.- a much worse one than the Muslims use.

Like the Koran, it’s not all bad. I like Ecclesiastes and a few Psalms. But the laws are far worse than anything Mo proscribed. Indeed, Mo was a gentleman by comparison to.most of the Jewish prophets. Some had child brides, all had slaves, and many fought wars of expansion and terror.

So I ask you this: why do you let the Jews off scott-free?

They are not waging bloody jihad against the west, other Jews, Hindus, Christian, yazidis,

This must have completely eluded your attention, PB. You probably think it a small to irrelevant matter.

Always, absolutely, never ever, eh?

The Jews killed that nice decent white fellow Jesus, remember.

FD would have liked him.

I don’t think you would have too much in common though, dear boy.

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freediver

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #196 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 7:56am

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 5:35pm:

Yes, Moses, it’s the best I can do. The Koran is tame in comparison to the Old Testament. You’d know this if you read them.

No religious Jews I know are refuting the Torah, Do you know any? They believe it’s the immutable law for all time.

You use one principle for the Muslims and another for the Jews. Essentially, your argument comes down to "but the Jews aren’t the ones going around killing people".

Very true.

But somehow, despite this, they hold a tyrannical horror story as their religious text.- a much worse one than the Muslims use.

Like the Koran, it’s not all bad. I like Ecclesiastes and a few Psalms. But the laws are far worse than anything Mo proscribed. Indeed, Mo was a gentleman by comparison to.most of the Jewish prophets. Some had child brides, all had slaves, and many fought wars of expansion and terror.

So I ask you this: why do you let the Jews off scott-free? I don’t ask this to trip you up or make a cheap point, I’m genuinely curious why you don’t hate the laws of the Old Testament with the same zeal you hold for the Koran. Have I missed an important philosophical distinction?

Please explain.

They also believe in the diaspora. They are ideologically opposed to a Jewish state, and many modern Jews actually oppose Israel's existence on religious grounds. That is hardly the same as holding it to be the immutable law for all time - how can it be if you reject the concept of a state enforcing the law? Even Judaism looks good in comparison to Islam. Judaism left that sort of nonsense behind even before Jesus turned up. Muhammed brought it all back.

To find something that makes Islam - what Muslims do believe to be the immutable law for all time - look good, you have to go back in time, before Jesus, and before the current version of Judaism was established. So what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

Either that, or look at Nazism. There are some eerie similarities there. Had Hitler succeeded in establishing his thousand year reich, it is likely that his successors would have turned him into a prophet or God in the centuries following, and his followers offered the same spineless apologetics for the holocaust that Muslims are compelled to offer for Muhammed's Jew slaughtering habits. And they would have also excused it by pointing to the harsh times that Hitler lived in, when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank.

Why go back so far in time when there is a far more familiar and similar example that everyone knows about?

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Soren

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #197 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 10:09am

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 8:58pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 5:35pm:

Yes, Moses, it’s the best I can do. The Koran is tame in comparison to the Old Testament. You’d know this if you read them.

No religious Jews I know are refuting the Torah, Do you know any? They believe it’s the immutable law for all time.

You use one principle for the Muslims and another for the Jews. Essentially, your argument comes down to "but the Jews aren’t the ones going around killing people".

Very true.

But somehow, despite this, they hold a tyrannical horror story as their religious text.- a much worse one than the Muslims use.

Like the Koran, it’s not all bad. I like Ecclesiastes and a few Psalms. But the laws are far worse than anything Mo proscribed. Indeed, Mo was a gentleman by comparison to.most of the Jewish prophets. Some had child brides, all had slaves, and many fought wars of expansion and terror.

So I ask you this: why do you let the Jews off scott-free?

They are not waging bloody jihad against the west, other Jews, Hindus, Christian, yazidis,

This must have completely eluded your attention, PB. You probably think it a small to irrelevant matter.

Always, absolutely, never ever, eh?

The Jews killed that nice decent white fellow Jesus, remember.

FD would have liked him.

I don’t think you would have too much in common though, dear boy.

So what Muslims are doing today should be judged in the light of what the Jews and Romans did 2000 years ago? You are out of your mind, PB.

This is what's happening everywhere that spineless apologists raise their ugly, empty heads - they will constantly expand the 'context' so as to excuse, relentlessly excuse and create equivalences between now and whatever distant historical time suits their spineless agenda.

For you to say that Muslims are responsible for what they are doing now is just not a possibility - even though Western, secular societies are operating with just that central notion - you are responsible for what you are doing. The victim status, spinelessly defended and nurtured by the apologists means that third world, culturally alien immigrants are not held to the same level of responsibility but are afforded all sorts of crazy excuses like the one you just tried above.

But remember, all you spineless bvggers, the third world immigrants in Western countries are not like the African slaves in the Americas - they are not brought here against their will. They come here because they WANT to. That means they are not victims of anything (except the calamity of having people like you speak for them). They are expected to assimilate into the culture they want to live in and that means taking responsibility for their conduct. Today's transgressions, barbarities, crimes are not balanced out by someone else's 2000 years ago.

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FD

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #198 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 2:02pm

Soren wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 10:09am:

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 8:58pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 5:35pm:

Yes, Moses, it’s the best I can do. The Koran is tame in comparison to the Old Testament. You’d know this if you read them.

No religious Jews I know are refuting the Torah, Do you know any? They believe it’s the immutable law for all time.

You use one principle for the Muslims and another for the Jews. Essentially, your argument comes down to "but the Jews aren’t the ones going around killing people".

Very true.

But somehow, despite this, they hold a tyrannical horror story as their religious text.- a much worse one than the Muslims use.

Like the Koran, it’s not all bad. I like Ecclesiastes and a few Psalms. But the laws are far worse than anything Mo proscribed. Indeed, Mo was a gentleman by comparison to.most of the Jewish prophets. Some had child brides, all had slaves, and many fought wars of expansion and terror.

So I ask you this: why do you let the Jews off scott-free?

They are not waging bloody jihad against the west, other Jews, Hindus, Christian, yazidis,

This must have completely eluded your attention, PB. You probably think it a small to irrelevant matter.

Always, absolutely, never ever, eh?

The Jews killed that nice decent white fellow Jesus, remember.

FD would have liked him.

I don’t think you would have too much in common though, dear boy.

So what Muslims are doing today should be judged in the light of what the Jews and Romans did 2000 years ago? You are out of your mind, PB.

This is what's happening everywhere that spineless apologists raise their ugly, empty heads - they will constantly expand the 'context' so as to excuse, relentlessly excuse and create equivalences between now and whatever distant historical time suits their spineless agenda.

For you to say that Muslims are responsible for what they are doing now is just not a possibility -

Are you being stupid or mendacious here? Salafists and Wahabists and fundamentalist knucklehead morons everywhere need to be woken up. I doubt very much that it’s possible to stop them, as does Barack Obama and Julie Bishop. It’s certainly not possible to carpet bomb them all.

But yes, they are a thorn in the side of the entire world, and I’d like to see them all stopped. Preferably, I’d like to see them start thinking. Personally, I’m not sure which is quicker or easier - killing them all or educating them? But I know what I’d prefer. Killing people who want to be martyred is a mug’s game. Kill one, and ten more spring up.

To say that these knuckleheads are the true Muslims and the eternal enemy of the West is breathtakingly stupid. It ignores all history. It even ignores the past half century. The West is traditionally the enemy of itself. Muslims are not a unified group or movement (and nor is the West). The fundamentalist Muslims I’ve mentioned are a reaction to modernity and Western pluralism. They are largely a modern invention, and extremely dangerous. They need to be dealt with, in one way or another.

Stupid or mendacious? Mendacious or stupid? I think it’s both, but I’ll let you make up your own mind, old boy.

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moses

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #199 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 5:00pm

Karnal & Gandalf

Karnal wrote: Quote:

Yes, Moses, it’s the best I can do. The Koran is tame in comparison to the Old Testament. You’d know this if you read them.

No religious Jews I know are refuting the Torah, Do you know any? They believe it’s the immutable law for all time.

You use one principle for the Muslims and another for the Jews. Essentially, your argument comes down to "but the Jews aren’t the ones going around killing people".

Very true.

But somehow, despite this, they hold a tyrannical horror story as their religious text.- a much worse one than the Muslims use.

Like the Koran, it’s not all bad. I like Ecclesiastes and a few Psalms. But the laws are far worse than anything Mo proscribed. Indeed, Mo was a gentleman by comparison to.most of the Jewish prophets. Some had child brides, all had slaves, and many fought wars of expansion and terror.

So I ask you this: why do you let the Jews off scott-free? I don’t ask this to trip you up or make a cheap point, I’m genuinely curious why you don’t hate the laws of the Old Testament with the same zeal you hold for the Koran. Have I missed an important philosophical distinction?

Please explain.

Do you have selective memory?

Speaking from a secular western view point where Christianity has had a vast influence on our history and societal values, how many times do I have to quote the relevant Christian doctrine which negates Old Testament laws?

As for the Jews I believe them to be a civilized modern nation, who are not running around slaughtering people every day while citing some ancient text from their Torah.

If there are expose them, lets's critically examine what they are following exactly. (as I say I'm unaware of any, you'll have to do the research to expose Judaic terrorism, or whatever you're going to call it, could you please stay relevant to the times 2014)

In the mean time muslims are the ones doing all the rape, torture and mass murder, as their religious text urges them to.

That's the issue right now, islamic doctrine and what it is causing today 2014 (terrorist atrocities).
===================================================

Gandalf wrote: Quote:

Moses is making a doctrinal argument to justify his criticism of islam - and is basically saying muslims are evil because their doctrine is so darn evil. Yet Karnal makes an excellent counter-argument - that if its all about evil doctrine, why aren't the jews even more evil - given that jews are firm in their belief in the authenticity of their doctrine.

The implication is that its not much to do with doctrine at all.

Now if you don't mind I'd like to hear Moses answer this interesting question himself.

The same answer applies to you Gandalf.

If you know of any type of Jewish terrorists who are continually torturing and slaughtering people while shouting some Judaic religious slogan, name them and the doctrine they are using to justify their terrorist activity.

I know nothing about what Jews actually believe regarding ancient text and today's 21st century values. It appears they have relegated the ancient barbarities into irrelevance.

The same cannot be said for muslims, you're the ones committing human rights atrocities that are urged by your doctrine, you're the ones who are 100% unable to give a credible explanation as to how the terrorists have got the doctrine wrong. (instead you support them by saying that the doctrine is infallible and perfect)

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FD

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #200 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 5:38pm

Moses, your entire argument about Muslims is not that they’re criminals (even if they are). You argument is that they are brainwashed by a bloodthirsty prophet and his sinister book.

Your reasoning means that the Jews are just as likely to fall prey to violence and terror, based on their own prophets and their far more sinister book. Remember, the Jews hold themselves up as God’s chosen people. Their book tells them to kill, and justifies many wars of expansion and much killing. Indeed, the modern borders of Israel, expanded through defensive wars against the Pan Arab states, are today justified on religious grounds.

And they have to be. The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is illegal under international law and a number of UN resolutions.

So what’s to say, given your argument about Muslims and the Koran, that Jews won’t use their book and Godly status to do exactly what you accuse the Muslims of? After all, we have examples of such maiming and killing in the name of the Jewish religion in the Old Testament.

Again, I’m curious. I’d like to know what you think.

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brumbie

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #201 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 9:05pm

FD wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 2:02pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 10:09am:

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 8:58pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 7:40pm:

FD wrote on Nov 21^st, 2014 at 5:35pm:

Yes, Moses, it’s the best I can do. The Koran is tame in comparison to the Old Testament. You’d know this if you read them.

No religious Jews I know are refuting the Torah, Do you know any? They believe it’s the immutable law for all time.

You use one principle for the Muslims and another for the Jews. Essentially, your argument comes down to "but the Jews aren’t the ones going around killing people".

Very true.

But somehow, despite this, they hold a tyrannical horror story as their religious text.- a much worse one than the Muslims use.

Like the Koran, it’s not all bad. I like Ecclesiastes and a few Psalms. But the laws are far worse than anything Mo proscribed. Indeed, Mo was a gentleman by comparison to.most of the Jewish prophets. Some had child brides, all had slaves, and many fought wars of expansion and terror.

So I ask you this: why do you let the Jews off scott-free?

They are not waging bloody jihad against the west, other Jews, Hindus, Christian, yazidis,

This must have completely eluded your attention, PB. You probably think it a small to irrelevant matter.

Always, absolutely, never ever, eh?

The Jews killed that nice decent white fellow Jesus, remember.

FD would have liked him.

I don’t think you would have too much in common though, dear boy.

So what Muslims are doing today should be judged in the light of what the Jews and Romans did 2000 years ago? You are out of your mind, PB.

This is what's happening everywhere that spineless apologists raise their ugly, empty heads - they will constantly expand the 'context' so as to excuse, relentlessly excuse and create equivalences between now and whatever distant historical time suits their spineless agenda.

For you to say that Muslims are responsible for what they are doing now is just not a possibility -

Are you being stupid or mendacious here? Salafists and Wahabists and fundamentalist knucklehead nice people everywhere need to be woken up. I doubt very much that it’s possible to stop them, as does Barack Obama and Julie Bishop. It’s certainly not possible to carpet bomb them all.

But yes, they are a thorn in the side of the entire world, and I’d like to see them all stopped. Preferably, I’d like to see them start thinking. Personally, I’m not sure which is quicker or easier - killing them all or educating them? But I know what I’d prefer. Killing people who want to be martyred is a mug’s game. Kill one, and ten more spring up.

To say that these knuckleheads are the true Muslims and the eternal enemy of the West is breathtakingly stupid. It ignores all history. It even ignores the past half century. The West is traditionally the enemy of itself. Muslims are not a unified group or movement (and nor is the West). The fundamentalist Muslims I’ve mentioned are a reaction to modernity and Western pluralism. They are largely a modern invention, and extremely dangerous. They need to be dealt with, in one way or another.

Stupid or mendacious? Mendacious or stupid? I think it’s both, but I’ll let you make up your own mind, old boy.

Thank you Karnal, a thoughtful comment.

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Soren

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #202 - Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 10:58pm

FD wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 2:02pm:

Are you being stupid or mendacious here? Salafists and Wahabists and fundamentalist knucklehead nice people everywhere need to be woken up. I doubt very much that it’s possible to stop them, as does Barack Obama and Julie Bishop. It’s certainly not possible to carpet bomb them all.

But yes, they are a thorn in the side of the entire world, and I’d like to see them all stopped. Preferably, I’d like to see them start thinking. Personally, I’m not sure which is quicker or easier - killing them all or educating them? But I know what I’d prefer. Killing people who want to be martyred is a mug’s game. Kill one, and ten more spring up.

To say that these knuckleheads are the true Muslims and the eternal enemy of the West is breathtakingly stupid. It ignores all history. It even ignores the past half century. The West is traditionally the enemy of itself. Muslims are not a unified group or movement (and nor is the West). The fundamentalist Muslims I’ve mentioned are a reaction to modernity and Western pluralism. They are largely a modern invention, and extremely dangerous. They need to be dealt with, in one way or another.

Stupid or mendacious? Mendacious or stupid? I think it’s both, but I’ll let you make up your own mind, old boy.

You are both mendatious AND stupid - as always.

Blah, blah blah, hand-wringing, blah blah blah.

What is to be actually done? Make a goddam decision, PB. You are forever one hand other hand about all these things. Something must be done, you say, but not any of the the option available.
Educate them? Like they are 'misguided' yufs, short of class room hours? You are that stupid? Really?

You speak but say f vck all. Typical PB .

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FD Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 100434	Re: islam=fraud and lying Reply #203 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 12:31am Them? Good heavens, dear boy, We’re talking about you.
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Soren

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #204 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 10:43am

FD wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2014 at 5:38pm:

Moses, your entire argument about Muslims is not that they’re criminals (even if they are). You argument is that they are brainwashed by a bloodthirsty prophet and his sinister book.

Your reasoning means that the Jews are just as likely to fall prey to violence and terror, based on their own prophets and their far more sinister book. Remember, the Jews hold themselves up as God’s chosen people. Their book tells them to kill, and justifies many wars of expansion and much killing. Indeed, the modern borders of Israel, expanded through defensive wars against the Pan Arab states, are today justified on religious grounds.

And they have to be. The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory is illegal under international law and a number of UN resolutions.

So what’s to say, given your argument about Muslims and the Koran, that Jews won’t use their book and Godly status to do exactly what you accuse the Muslims of? After all, we have examples of such maiming and killing in the name of the Jewish religion in the Old Testament.

Again, I’m curious. I’d like to know what you think.

Stupid, baseless equivalence.

The Koran does tell the Muslims to conquer the world and kill all the jews and subjugate and kill all non-believers. It is not just historical but programmatic, future oriented. It instructs on how to win the futrure through violence and conquest.
The OT tells the stories of past battles and justifies them as god's will. What it does not do is tell Jews to conquer the world and kill or subjugate all non-Jews in order to be redeemed.

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FD Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 100434	Re: islam=fraud and lying Reply #205 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 11:36am And nor does the Koran tell followers to militarily conquer the world, old boy. If you can disprove this, I’ll buy your stool. The Book of Leviticus is not "past oriented", It’s the law. It’s followed today by millions of Jews.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52019 At my desk.	Re: islam=fraud and lying Reply #206 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 1:31pm They didn't know what the world was back then, but Muhammed certainly showed them how to build an Islamic state, complete with Jew slaughtering, stoning, child brides, and non-Muslims knowing their place.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: islam=fraud and lying Reply #207 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm Muhammad apparently introduced stoning to the world now - as well as child brides and jew slaughtering. All completely unheard of before he came along
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52019 At my desk.	Re: islam=fraud and lying Reply #208 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 2:02pm He introduced the very first Islamic state.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: islam=fraud and lying
Reply #209 - Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 2:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Muhammad apparently introduced stoning to the world now - as well as child brides and jew slaughtering. All completely unheard of before he came along Cheesy

I though Mo got Islamic morality from monkeys, was it a case of monkey see monkey do?

Quote:

During the pre islamic period of ignorance i saw a she monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys.
They were all stoning it because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse,I too stoned it along with them.
sunnah.com/bukhari/63/75

Do you think it is arrogant of muslims to describe the time before Islam as the pre islamic period of ignorance?

If that was in the pre islamic period of ignorance can we say muslims are in the Islamic period of ignorance today?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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