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Poll Poll
Question: Should it be illegal to criticise or mock religion in Aus?

Yes, it should be illegal.    
  1 (4.5%)
No, it should not.    
  21 (95.5%)




Total votes: 22
« Created by: freediver on: Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:16pm »

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Australians want to ban mockery of religion (Read 15645 times)
freediver
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Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:13pm
 
Gandalf made the extraordinary claim that a 'massive majority' of Australians want the government to ban mockery or criticism of religion. He made this claim, ironically, while trying to make the case that mainstream Australian Muslims (ie, not the 'tiny minority' we keep hearing about) are 'holding hands' with mainstream Australia on freedom of speech issues. Love is blind, apparently.

How could someone misjudge the public mood so badly? Not by living here or talking to Australians. Gandalf apparently got this information from an online poll he stumbled across. It was not one of our forum polls, but from another website.

Gandalf's interpretation of the poll:

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
Quote:
"mainstream" virtually all of western civilization expressed a clear disgust with the Muhammad cartoons

Like I have pointed out several times in response to this BS argument - that is the very definition of freedom of speech - the right to say something you might not like. People expressed disgust with piss christ also. This does not mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery. By making this argument you merely demonstrate the inability of Muslims to even comprehend what freedom of speech means. I invite you to respond to this, rather than simply ignoring it then repeating yourself after a few pages of desperately trying to change the topic.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 2:58pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
This does not mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery.

A survey saying a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery does... well... mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery.


I initially thought this was a reference to a poll Gandalf had already presented in that thread, in which the mojority thought that newspapers should not have published the Muhammed cartoons, but 'begrudgingly' (I assume gandalf added this term) acknowledged their right to do so. Gandalf later revealed what the survey actually said:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 14th, 2014 at 5:31pm:
As promised:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1369558442/404#404

Quote:
Nearly 80% support laws against racial vilification. Close to 70% support laws against religious vilification.


It should be unlawful to offend someone on the basis of their race, culture or religion: strongly agree: 27% agree 38.7%

It should be unlawful to humiliate someone on the basis of their race, culture or religion: strongly agree: 29% agree 44.7%

It should be unlawful to insult someone on the basis of their race, culture or religion: strongly agree: 28% agree 43.5%

http://theconversation.com/what-do-australian-internet-users-think-about-racial-...



The survey was conducted by the website Gandalf linked to. I couldn't see any more information about how many people were polled or if any effort was made to reach a broad cross-section of the community rather than say, visitors to that site. It only described it as an 'online survey'. Admittedly, it is worded very loosely, and I could understand a non-English speaker living in a Kabul basement misinterpreting the results, but not someone who claims to speak on behalf of mainstream Australia.

Gandalf reinforces his confusion:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2014 at 10:29am:
freediver wrote on Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:35am:
Where does it say that "a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery"?


You can try and explain away "insult", "offend" and "humiliate" someone on the basis of religion - as not having anything to do with wanting to place religion beyond criticism or mockery, but you are being your usual dishonest, spineless-apologist self. Its just a continuation of the excruciating long-running saga of FD performing the most absurd hypocritical contortions to sustain his pathetic anti-muslim prejudice.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 22nd, 2014 at 2:33pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 22nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:
beyond that little internet survey whose meaning you stretched beyond recognition?


Vintage FD. Don't worry, I'll save you the embarrassment of having to explain yourself there - because frankly, I just can't be arsed. Suffice to say your blatant hypocricy and spineless apologism for any hint of "anti-freeedom" sentiment amongst the "good" non-muslim population is duly noted.
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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:08pm by freediver »  

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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #1 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:16pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 22nd, 2014 at 2:52pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 22nd, 2014 at 1:14pm:
If you concede that this survey is obviously BS and in no way reflects the views of the majority of Australians, I will stop bringing it up.


THere is nothing wrong with the survey. Time you started to put up or shut up on that front. If the survey had shown a majority of muslims wanting to execute apostates you wouldn't be making these empty attacks on it. Your spineless apologism for anything that resembles non-muslim Australians rejecting your extremist view of freedom is painfully transparent.


Gandalf begins to obfuscate instead, and brings up the Pew survey as an excuse. This is a survey someone else introduced a while back that shows some rather disturbing views held by many Muslims from around the world, including from countries that Gandalf and the apologists had previously held up as demonstrations of progressive Islam. In contrast to Gandalf's dodgy internet survey, the Pew survey was conducted properly and asked very specific questions about support for Shariah law in general and some of the more barbaric aspects of it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 23rd, 2014 at 3:47pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 23rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:
Do you stand by your interpretation of that internet survey?


I stand by my assertion that this survey demonstrates the exact sort of spineless apologism you rail against - provided its done by muslims or people defending muslims. If the same survey had shown 70% of muslims saying that insulting people on the basis of religion should be outlawed, you wouldn't be trying to obfuscate with pathetic excuses like "its meaning has been stretched beyond recognition" - would you? At least be honest here FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 23rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:
There are obvious flaws in both the survey and your interpretation of it.


Grin OF course there is. It is inconvenient.

freediver wrote on Oct 23rd, 2014 at 3:03pm:
The Pew survey was done properly and I did not need to reinterpret the results the way you did


Oh, so perhaps you can help me then - exactly how do I misinterpret people wanting to outlaw offending people on the basis of religion?

Are you saying this response doesn't actually demonstrate the same spineless apologetics that you've been spamming us with this last year? Please FD, do continue explaining away your blatant and spineless hypocricy on this. Its hilarious.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 24th, 2014 at 12:02pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 23rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:
Is this you backpedalling, or merely changing the topic? I would appreciate a clarification.


Focus on the actual topic FD, not your pathetic attempts to derail it. *YOU* answer the question - was this response an example of the exact type of spineless apologism you have been railing against, or is it one rule for muslims and another for non-muslims. That is the heart of the topic of the thread here - are mainstream muslims actually demonstrably different in their attitudes about our values and freedoms?

Or if you insist on focusing on those words of mine - answer my other question - if the respondents had been muslim, would you label this as attempting to legally put islam beyond criticism? Be honest, if you can.


polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 11:51am:
freediver wrote on Oct 24th, 2014 at 6:49pm:
Would you mind clarifying whether you are backpedaling or merely changing the subject?


Again, if muslims had said it, it wouldn't be a "dodgy internet survey", and all sorts of smears would be being produced from it. Again, can you say honestly, with a straight face that if muslims had said - even in an internet survey - that people shouldn't be offended on the basis of their religion, you wouldn't label that as a case of muslims trying to put religion beyond criticism? Would you be trying to obfuscate the results by dismissing it as a mere "dodgy internet survey" (with no justification) thats been "reinterpreted beyond recognition"? A straight answer, please.

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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:56pm by freediver »  

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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #2 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:16pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 4:14pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 1:14pm:
While we're at it, how do you feel about this claim?

Quote:
A survey saying a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery does...


The claim is a perfect interpretation of what people are saying. You can't mock religion without mocking the people who follow it. I have no idea what non-existent straws you are trying to split, but it reeks of rank hypocricy. Really, your desperation to obfuscate the bleeding obvious, just to avoid any risk that non-muslims might be "as bad" as muslims, couldn't be more pathetic


freediver wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 1:14pm:
Is there anything confusing or 'not straight' about that Gandalf?


Yes the bit about me "trying to reinterpret their responses".

freediver wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 1:14pm:
One of those issues is ambiguity - the same ambiguity we get from your refusal to elaborate on when it should be illegal to depict and mock Muhammed. In the case of the survey, this is a flaw that cannot now be undone. In your case, it is a continued and deliberate effort at obfuscation.


If you could just see yourself FD, this hypocritical dance is trully a sight to behold. When Malaysians answer a consequence-free yes/no question about apostates, all the wrath of FD's judgment comes down on them - straight away they are murderous, religious zealots - "little Hitlers" in fact - and any attempts to rationalise their responses is instantly branded as the the most heinous of spineless apologetics. Now we have "enlightened" non-muslims giving inconvenient responses to questions on freedom of speech  - clearly expressing their desire to put religion beyond mockery, guilty of the same grave crime of "siding against freedom" that only muslims should be guilty of, and suddenly FD is all nuanced about it.



polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:47am:
freediver wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 7:11pm:
No it isn't. It is stupid. It is not what "people" are saying, nor does it reflect the outcome of the survey, no matter how much liberty you take with the ambiguities.


Rubbish. Only the most spectacular efforts in mental gymnastics could split hairs like this. Religions don't exist without people following them. You don't make abstract mockery of "religions" without mocking the people who follow it - because one doesn't exist without the other - obviously. You won't find anyone who considers the Danish cartoons as anything other than insulting or offending muslims, and most Australians said at the time they thought it was wrong to do so. And consistent with this, most Australians say they think it should be unlawful to mock people on the basis of religion.

But once again, we see FD masterfully steering the discussion into irrelevant minutiae, just to distract from the core issue. Merely mocking people on the basis of religion alone is clearly something that should be sacrosanct under FD ideology, and should be protected at all costs. By rejecting this, the majority of Australians are displaying the very spineless apologetics that FD rails against day in day out (as long as they are muslims or muslim apologists).

freediver wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 7:11pm:
As usual, the subtleties of balancing freedom of speech against other rights and freedoms is completely lost on you. No wonder you flip flop between labeling me an extremist and a hypocrite.


You are an extremist, and you are a hypocrite.

Going against what a majority of Australians believe about balancing freedom with protecting minorities makes you an extremist - by simple definition.

And the fact that you spinelessly apologise for non-muslims chipping away at our freedoms - whether it be regarding them wanting people to be protected against offense based on their religion, or wanting an historical opinion to be made a thought crime - makes you a hypocrite.

freediver wrote on Oct 27th, 2014 at 7:11pm:
Furthermore I did not need to do any reinterpreting of the results.


Grin Grin You said in a previous post that its anti-freedom - but only on the surface. Then you BS about some "flaws" that you have never elaborated on, and tried to dismiss the whole survey as not saying what it says.

Please tell me FD - how does believing people should not be insulted/offended on the basis of religion - somehow become not believing that people should not be insulted/offended on the basis of religion?

Good luck with trying to answer that and claim you are not the one reinterpreting the results at the same time.


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« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:02pm by freediver »  

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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #3 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:31pm
 
Don’t worry, FD. Abu should be along any day now to apologize and say you were right all along.
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #4 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:01pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
Don’t worry, FD. Abu should be along any day now to apologize and say you were right all along.

Well, FD IS right.

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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #5 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:10pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:01pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
Don’t worry, FD. Abu should be along any day now to apologize and say you were right all along.

Well, FD IS right.



Is he? That’s a relief. I was starting to feel for him for a minute there. I have no idea what he’s saying, but I’m.glad he’s right.

We’re all right in our own little ways, no?
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:39pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:10pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:01pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
Don’t worry, FD. Abu should be along any day now to apologize and say you were right all along.

Well, FD IS right.



Is he? That’s a relief. I was starting to feel for him for a minute there. I have no idea what he’s saying, but I’m.glad he’s right.

We’re all right in our own little ways, no?

No, PB.  You are wrong in your own little way.  Your role is to be wrong. That's what you ARE and can do/be no other.


Providence, innit.





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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #7 - Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:50pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:39pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:10pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 11:01pm:
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 9:31pm:
Don’t worry, FD. Abu should be along any day now to apologize and say you were right all along.

Well, FD IS right.



Is he? That’s a relief. I was starting to feel for him for a minute there. I have no idea what he’s saying, but I’m.glad he’s right.

We’re all right in our own little ways, no?

No, PB.  You are wrong in your own little way.  Your role is to be wrong. That's what you ARE and can do/be no other.


Providence, innit.




I agree. We’re all wrong too.

There are no right or wrong answers here, dear boy.

Don’t quote me on that, FD. I might change my mind.

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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 9:12am
 
Gandalf, I think you'll find most Australians DIDN'T have a problem with the Danish cartoons, nor did we have a problem with the freedom that allowed their publication.
I blame freecom of speech.
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 9:34am
 
Freediver can you please add another option to your poll?

I'd like  'it should be compulsory to mock religion'.  Grin Grin Grin
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #10 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 10:07am
 
That would leave lefties out in the cold as they are terrified of criticizing islam / terrorism.
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #11 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 10:45am
 
moses wrote on Oct 29th, 2014 at 10:07am:
That would leave lefties out in the cold as they are terrified of criticizing islam / terrorism.


do you people get a thrill out of being wrong?  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #12 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 11:24am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 28th, 2014 at 10:47am:
But once again, we see FD masterfully steering the discussion into irrelevant minutiae, just to distract from the core issue. Merely mocking people on the basis of religion alone is clearly something that should be sacrosanct under FD ideology, and should be protected at all costs. By rejecting this, the majority of Australians are displaying the very spineless apologetics that FD rails against day in day out (as long as they are muslims or muslim apologists).
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #13 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 11:25am
 
Bubba Zanetti wrote on Oct 29th, 2014 at 9:12am:
I blame freecom of speech.


Here’s your example of Australians wanting to do away with Freeeedom, FD.

Mind you, he does come from Western Sydney with all the Muselmen, so he  may well be under some sort of spell.
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Re: Australians want to ban mockery of religion
Reply #14 - Oct 29th, 2014 at 11:29am
 
moses wrote on Oct 29th, 2014 at 10:07am:
That would leave lefties out in the cold as they are terrified of criticizing islam / terrorism.



Really?

Islam is a ridiculous religion, and all terrorists are barbaric, murdering bastards.

Better?




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