Australian Politics Forum - The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates

greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #30 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:10pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money).

When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money.

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #31 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:18pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 8:29pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly?

You'll need to explain that one a bit more Grappler? Huh

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself.

That's what happens now, and in part, answers John S's eloquently put question directed at me.... Huh

Can't handle a business under the proper rules and pay rates.. turns to Mummy/Daddy (Muddy) government for enforcement of change that will give handout to owner.

I thought the Rabid Right here were dedicated to the 'free market' system.... yet the moment it gets too hard they run to Big Muddy

Incorrect. The only person getting a handout is the worker getting paid double for the same job.

It's not a free market though when the price of labour is artificially doubled regardless of the price of product or service. The business is forced to lower its margin to compete.

All this achieves is that many businesses will not open on Sundays and that's exactly why potential jobs for the unemployed are being lost (there you go Wisey...the answer to your question as well) Huh

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #32 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:18pm:

All this achieves is that many businesses will not open on Sundays and that's exactly why potential jobs for the unemployed are being lost (there you go Wisey...the answer to your question as well) Huh

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

Abolishing penalty rates won't create jobs: all it will achieve is a decrease in the existing employees' wages, and an increase in the time they spend at work.

And, with less money in their pockets, thousands of low paid workers won't be buying a new TV or iPhone every year.

Sales will drop.

More people will be made unemployed.

And, so it goes ...

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #33 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:50pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

Then that would be overtime Greggery.

If the work is unskilled then the employer would be more likely to employ someone on single time than pay an existing employee overtime.

If there's no-one to fill the job the overtime payment is not a 'penalty' rate but a reward payment.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #34 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:54pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money).

When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money.

So are you suggesting that price signals have no effect on demand.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #35 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:05pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:18pm:

All this achieves is that many businesses will not open on Sundays and that's exactly why potential jobs for the unemployed are being lost (there you go Wisey...the answer to your question as well) Huh

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

I think this is a part of the problem. If a business is closed on Sunday the reason isn't going to be penalty rates.

Removing penalties will not encourage any business to open on a week end.

If there is sufficient demand for the business to open then penalty rates do not matter and if there is not sufficient demand then penalty rates still make no difference.

most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

In some cases this would be correct. However the big impact is not with more business open on week ends it is with the current business already open on week ends paying less to their employees and giving those employees no option at all.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #36 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:09pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:54pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money).

When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money.

So are you suggesting that price signals have no effect on demand.

What price signals ?

I would think with coffee the demand is very significant anyway and not real likely to dramatically increase due to anything related to penalty rates.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #37 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:10pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:50pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

Then that would be overtime Greggery.

If the work is unskilled then the employer would be more likely to employ someone on single time than pay an existing employee overtime.

If there's no-one to fill the job the overtime payment is not a 'penalty' rate but a reward payment.

To avoid overtime rates, the extra work will be given to the casual employees.

Many, if not most, employees in the hospitality industry are casuals anyway, and under their Modern Award they are not paid overtime rates.

Every way you look at it, in the real world, abolishing penalty rates will not result in businesses employing more staff.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 62390 Here Gender:	Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Reply #38 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:12pm Quote: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates I think that is being very kind - maybe Label a filthy grub more accurately.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #39 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:26pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:50pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

Then that would be overtime Greggery.

If the work is unskilled then the employer would be more likely to employ someone on single time than pay an existing employee overtime.

If there's no-one to fill the job the overtime payment is not a 'penalty' rate but a reward payment.

Many (if not most) employees in the hospitality industry are casuals.

These workers are exempt from overtime payments in both the National Modern Award, and in their respective state awards (e.g. Restaurant, Tearoom and Catering Workers’ WA Award).

As I have already said, if businesses decided to open on Sundays, the additional work will be given to the existing casual employees, with no requirement to pay any extra.

Abolishing penalty rates won't create any jobs.

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #40 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:41pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:54pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money).

When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money.

So are you suggesting that price signals have no effect on demand.

What price signals ?

I would think with coffee the demand is very significant anyway and not real likely to dramatically increase due to anything related to penalty rates.

So you would be happy to pay double the price for a coffee on Sunday? Huh

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #41 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:46pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:41pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:54pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money).

When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money.

So are you suggesting that price signals have no effect on demand.

What price signals ?

I would think with coffee the demand is very significant anyway and not real likely to dramatically increase due to anything related to penalty rates.

So you would be happy to pay double the price for a coffee on Sunday? Huh

Penalty rates are in place right now, and we don't pay double for coffee on Sundays.

Sensible businesses factor in penalty rates, overtime, etc.

If penalty rates are abolished, the prices will remain the same, and no extra jobs will be created: the owners will pocket the profits, and the casual staff will be asked to work additional hours (on their usual rate of pay).

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #42 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:47pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:10pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:50pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

Then that would be overtime Greggery.

If the work is unskilled then the employer would be more likely to employ someone on single time than pay an existing employee overtime.

If there's no-one to fill the job the overtime payment is not a 'penalty' rate but a reward payment.

To avoid overtime rates, the extra work will be given to the casual employees.

Many, if not most, employees in the hospitality industry are casuals anyway, and under their Modern Award they are not paid overtime rates.

Every way you look at it, in the real world, abolishing penalty rates will not result in businesses employing more staff.

Your last paragraph contradicts your first one... Grin

Extra 'casual' work would be created by your own admission Greggy.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #43 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:48pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:47pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:10pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:50pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:33pm:

And, back in the real world: if penalty rates were abolished, thus allowing more businesses to open on Sundays, most of those employers would demand that the existing employees do the extra work.

Then that would be overtime Greggery.

If the work is unskilled then the employer would be more likely to employ someone on single time than pay an existing employee overtime.

If there's no-one to fill the job the overtime payment is not a 'penalty' rate but a reward payment.

To avoid overtime rates, the extra work will be given to the casual employees.

Many, if not most, employees in the hospitality industry are casuals anyway, and under their Modern Award they are not paid overtime rates.

Every way you look at it, in the real world, abolishing penalty rates will not result in businesses employing more staff.

Your last paragraph contradicts your first one... Grin

Extra 'casual' work would be created by your own admission Greggy.

I suggest you read it again: "will not result in businesses employing more staff."

The existing casuals will do more work.

That does not mean that people on the dole will be given a job.

Not sure why you don't understand that.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #44 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:52pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:09pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:54pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:10pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

And, back in the real world: if the demand for coffee did increase, due to cheaper prices (which is a huge stretch of the imagination in the first place), the existing employees would just have to work harder (for less money).

When faced with the choice of a) pocketing the extra profits or, b) employing more staff, most small business owners will opt for option a). They're not in it to make friends: they're in it to make money.

So are you suggesting that price signals have no effect on demand.

What price signals ?

I would think with coffee the demand is very significant anyway and not real likely to dramatically increase due to anything related to penalty rates.

I'm not a coffee expert. What you're saying is the polar opposite of accepted theory. If demand was significant then so would be the price. If the price is already above or at the market clearing rate, a reduction would most certainly increase demand. If the price today is below the clearing rate you would see prices increase quick smart until the clearing rate is reached.

Either way, if the marginal cost of production is lowered by smaller input costs this will be reflected in the retail price ( coffee being a reasonably elastic supply commodity I assume ). If production costs stay as they are so will the retail cost.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Poll
Question: Would you work Late night or weekends for single time
Yes 4 (21.1%) No 15 (78.9%) Total votes: 19 « Created by: John S on: Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am »