Australian Politics Forum - The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates

Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #15 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

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John S

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #16 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:27pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

Where is there anywhere in my post that says I get tax-payer handouts?

Now stupid answer the question how will cutting penalty rates for weekend work bring down the unemployment level?

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'The worst Labor Government is always better then the best Liberal government for Australians workers'

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #17 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly? You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #18 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 3:07pm

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:27pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So

if

you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

Where is there anywhere in my post that says I get tax-payer handouts?

Now stupid answer the question how will cutting penalty rates for weekend work bring down the unemployment level?

Speaking of stupidity.... why don't you just answer my question first? Cheesy

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #19 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 3:13pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly?

You'll need to explain that one a bit more Grappler? Huh

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself.

That's what happens now, and in part, answers John S's eloquently put question directed at me.... Huh

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #20 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 3:46pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You normally argue that many people would be excited by the prospect of being able to work for less pay?

You also argue frequently that if you don't like the conditions you can just leave the job.

We now see you facing the reality that for many they have no choice at all - they need a job and therefore have to just cop it.

It seems that all that wonderful flexibility with people who prefer to work nights and weekends for less pay b/s isn't held as genuinely as you have indicated in the past. Now we have people being bullied to work inflexible hours and not being paid properly for their time.

You conservatives need to make up your minds either there is a huge pool of people out there excited about working the worst hours for less pay or there isn't.

I think I know the answer.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #21 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #22 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 7:13pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

You would probably find that if one of the competitors reduced their rates the others would follow and because they all understand this they more than likely would all keep their prices up and take the increased profit. They would all get the same advantage.

The overall point shown here though is that these guys are not short on staff because of penalty rates - the options relate to demand change or additional opportunity.

Of course since the change would still maintain the same competitive status quo they could always do the same things with no change.

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Lobo

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #23 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 7:23pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly? You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself.

Exactly.....

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"What's in store for me in the direction I don't take?"-Jack Kerouac.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #24 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 7:44pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

Why not just take a non shift job instead ?

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #25 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 8:29pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly?

You'll need to explain that one a bit more Grappler? Huh

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself.

That's what happens now, and in part, answers John S's eloquently put question directed at me.... Huh

Can't handle a business under the proper rules and pay rates.. turns to Mummy/Daddy (Muddy) government for enforcement of change that will give handout to owner.

I thought the Rabid Right here were dedicated to the 'free market' system.... yet the moment it gets too hard they run to Big Muddy

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #26 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 8:32pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 7:44pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

Why not just take a non shift job instead ?

Yeah - plenty of jobs out there for those that want to get off their arse and go get one.. employers are just falling over themselves to offer you the best deal - read this strand for proof!

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #27 - Sep 7^th, 2014 at 10:23pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 7:13pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 6:54pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

It's not quite so simple. It depends whether the business faces competition from other businesses that lower their retail price since the marginal cost of production would decrease. If this should occur and the business grows its market share or the demand for coffee increases due to cheaper prices then there would be scope for increasing staff levels.

Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental.

You would probably find that if one of the competitors reduced their rates the others would follow and because they all understand this they more than likely would all keep their prices up and take the increased profit. They would all get the same advantage.

I won't buy that one. Business owners are there for profit. If they can garner a competitive edge you can bet your balls they'll go for it. Not only is commercial collusion against the law it also leads to diminished demand as the reactions to market conditions disappears. You are neglecting the situation where increasing the turnover through lower retail pricing may lead to increases in profit so long as the increased volume is sufficient to cover the diminished price.

The overall point shown here though is that these guys are not short on staff because of penalty rates - the options relate to demand change or additional opportunity.

Demand change is what the whole argument is about. It is possible, but not always that reduced marginal input costs leaves the additional opportunity bit wide open. If it widens sufficiently to justify the employment of another body, that is what will happen. If not, it won't

Of course since the change would still maintain the same competitive status quo they could always do the same things with no change.

You're assuming that the relationship between the retail price and product demand is a perfectly linear one. This is a fraught assumption as they mostly never are, particularly when market saturation is reached.

There is also the supply / demand situation to be considered on the labour side of the equation. It is also possible in some industries that the abolition of penalties may even cause the supply of labour to dry up as employees seek other opportunities due to income reduction. In this case it is even likely that employers may find themselves actually paying above the rate to keep staff.

Like I said. It's not quite so simple.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #28 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:00pm

Lobo wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 7:23pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:40pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

John S wrote on Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If a coffee shop or restaurant has a average of 200 customer for a days trading and the business employs 4 staff and penalty rate is cut to single time and the business still get 200 customers would the business employ more staff.

poll added

So if you were unemployed you wouldn't work for single time at night or weekends but would gladly accept a tax-payer handout? Sad

Why am I not surprised?

You'd rather the shopkeeper cop a taxpayer handout for not paying properly? You want the business and the money - you work for it. You don't want to pay penalty rates.. work those hours yourself.

Exactly.....

You don't want to work without penalty rates then you go and work somewhere else....

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Life_goes_on

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #29 - Sep 8^th, 2014 at 12:07pm

No penalty rates, then I'd refuse Saturday or Sunday work.

Even with penalty rates in place, we often have jobs on the weekend that get canned because they aren't able to raise the number of workers required.

Most people have absolutely had it after working 50+ hours Monday to Friday - especially when you add to that the 2, 3 or 4 hours travel time a day.

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"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

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Poll
Question: Would you work Late night or weekends for single time
Yes 4 (21.1%) No 15 (78.9%) Total votes: 19 « Created by: John S on: Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am »