Australian Politics Forum - The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Reply #120 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm your either in Bulli or Dapto .... not redneck enough and to uppity for Dapto so I'm voting for Bulli ... although I'm not sure what you mean by race track ... apart from the dog track as far as I'm aware neither Bulli or Dapto have a race track .. unless its a recent addition
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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #121 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:14pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:40am:

I have never raced out of bed on a saturday/sunday morning to get a cup of coffee because I heard that coffees were going cheap at coffee shop X today. And when I arrive at the various coffee shops the difference of the price of the coffee between them (if any, and I stress if any because its rare that there is a difference, esp when they're operating side by side) is not a factor that I pay any regard to in deciding where I will sit. More often then not its whether I have had a good cup of coffee at that place before, if its clean, doesn't smell and the atmosphere is nice. It's very hard to put it more accurately then greggery already has including the part that the Croc here is just sprouting the basics he picked up in first year uni all those years ago and hasn't allowed his personal experience to build on what his formal education taught him. Its too bad.

You really are an ignorant tosser. Just for your edification you should revisit page two of the thread of which I have produced an excerpt just to make it uncomplicated for you.

You will find that I have not expressly advocated the removal of penalties. On the contrary, I have shown scenarios where it could even be detrimental. The last few pages are responses to those who say that price reduction or employment opportunities are absolutely impossible under any circumstances. That is not correct in all cases. Now piss off.

Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental.

You would probably find that if one of the competitors reduced their rates the others would follow and because they all understand this they more than likely would all keep their prices up and take the increased profit. They would all get the same advantage.

I won't buy that one. Business owners are there for profit. If they can garner a competitive edge you can bet your balls they'll go for it. Not only is commercial collusion against the law it also leads to diminished demand as the reactions to market conditions disappears. You are neglecting the situation where increasing the turnover through lower retail pricing may lead to increases in profit so long as the increased volume is sufficient to cover the diminished price.

The overall point shown here though is that these guys are not short on staff because of penalty rates - the options relate to demand change or additional opportunity.

Demand change is what the whole argument is about. It is possible, but not always that reduced marginal input costs leaves the additional opportunity bit wide open. If it widens sufficiently to justify the employment of another body, that is what will happen. If not, it won't

Of course since the change would still maintain the same competitive status quo they could always do the same things with no change.

You're assuming that the relationship between the retail price and product demand is a perfectly linear one. This is a fraught assumption as they mostly never are, particularly when market saturation is reached.

There is also the supply / demand situation to be considered on the labour side of the equation. It is also possible in some industries that the abolition of penalties may even cause the supply of labour to dry up as employees seek other opportunities due to income reduction. In this case it is even likely that employers may find themselves actually paying above the rate to keep staff.

Like I said. It's not quite so simple.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #122 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:17pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

Where do you live, Swag?

As my profile states. The Illawarra NSW.

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

BTW:- What 'variables' are there in working on Sunday, at midnight or on a public holiday?

Some businesses get very busy on a Sunday others don't.

Location can be a variable.

A business may be located in a tourist town that gets a 'swag' of city day trippers. The local stores make a motsa, trade would be very busy and staff would totally earn a higher rate of pay.

Alternatively, a similar business in a boring old suburb won't get any extra trade on a Sunday. It may well be much quieter and the business owner may well make the decision to stay closed rather than open and pay a worker double time.

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

So - a parking cop should get paid penalty for working nights or Sundays, but a pub worker shouldn't? One rule for some, another rule for others?

A guy working underground in a mine should not get penalty for working Sunday midnight on Christmas Day - but a cop should, or a nurse, or a fireman

Depends upon the situation.

A cop working the Cross on New Years Eve is obviously on a more difficult job than a cop in a sleepy little town full of pensioners on New Years Eve. Pay rates should be different.

Nurses in major hospitals are generally super busy on Fri and Sat nights and can justify a higher rate of pay but a nurse in an aged care facility likely wouldn't experience any significant difference to work levels whether it was a weekend or not. Why should they both be paid double time?

Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder?

Huh

Swag - it doesn't matter if the business is busy or not - the employees are not shareholders. They are paid to be there - the owner earns by being there and by employing them. See the difference?

It's like the discussion of 'wage gap' - women EARN less through working less hours - they are paid wages at the same rate for the same work. An employee is paid the same rate regardless of how busy the place is - the owner earns what is earned from the level of busy-ness....

An employee is paid according to the rules for time worked etc - the owner earns what he/she earns from operating the business regardless of hours.

It's a decision everyone has to make if they want a business.. and be prepared to put in the hours and the work. I don't see many running away from the chance to get into business.. the lurks are too good.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #123 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:19pm

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

your either in Bulli or Dapto .... not redneck enough and to uppity for Dapto so I'm voting for Bulli ...

although I'm not sure what you mean by race track ... apart from the dog track as far as I'm aware neither Bulli or Dapto have a race track .. unless its a recent addition

Dapto and Bulli've gone to the dogs...... they have Bulli and Dapto races with puppies, I think....

$75 an hour? I'm in the wrong business....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #124 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

your either in Bulli or Dapto .... not redneck enough and to uppity for Dapto so I'm voting for Bulli ...

although I'm not sure what you mean by race track ... apart from the dog track as far as I'm aware neither Bulli or Dapto have a race track .. unless its a recent addition

"Redneck and uppity Dapto it is".. Grin

The race course is Kembla Grange, technically not Dapto but it's close enough.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #125 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

You're getting off track.

From the OP: "EMPLOYERS would hire more young workers within months if the federal government reformed workplace laws to free up penalty rates, Liberal MPs are claiming, as they renew a push for changes."

No, they wouldn't.

Employers would not hire more people to do the same amount of work.

They'd have a lower wage bill, and nothing else would change.

I never said I agreed. I did say, if you read the earlier pages that it wasn't so simple.

My comment from page two: "Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental."

The responses of the last few pages are to those who seem to think that what the politician said is absolutely impossible in all cases. It's not.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #126 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:25pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

your either in Bulli or Dapto .... not redneck enough and to uppity for Dapto so I'm voting for Bulli ...

although I'm not sure what you mean by race track ... apart from the dog track as far as I'm aware neither Bulli or Dapto have a race track .. unless its a recent addition

"Redneck and uppity Dapto it is".. Grin

The race course is Kembla Grange, technically not Dapto but it's close enough.

We have Kalaru near here - used to be like Vacy - one day a year - now it's three I think... maybe more.... no puppies here or trots... only gallops.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #127 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:44pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:05pm:

your either in Bulli or Dapto .... not redneck enough and to uppity for Dapto so I'm voting for Bulli ...

although I'm not sure what you mean by race track ... apart from the dog track as far as I'm aware neither Bulli or Dapto have a race track .. unless its a recent addition

"Redneck and uppity Dapto it is".. Grin

no I said you are NOT redneck enough and TOO uppity for Dapto ...

The race course is Kembla Grange, technically not Dapto but it's close enough.

of course, sorry, forgot about Kembla Grange ... don't know how considering I've lived in Unanderra, Lake Heights & Warrawong (amongst others) and had a warehouse not far from Kambla Grange . Used to go to that feedstock supplier on Northcliff drive all the time for my dog meat and pet supplies ...

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #128 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 2:23pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

You're getting off track.

From the OP: "EMPLOYERS would hire more young workers within months if the federal government reformed workplace laws to free up penalty rates, Liberal MPs are claiming, as they renew a push for changes."

No, they wouldn't.

Employers would not hire more people to do the same amount of work.

They'd have a lower wage bill, and nothing else would change.

I never said I agreed. I did say, if you read the earlier pages that it wasn't so simple.

My comment from page two: "Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental."

The responses of the last few pages are to those who seem to think that what the politician said is absolutely impossible in all cases. It's not.

Yes, yes silly person, we all know that there are many variables involved and yes every businessperson/worker and consumer have there own particular circumstances to contend with. That's a given in economics in case you haven't clicked to it yet. What the issue is and what everyone seems to understand but you is; "Given all those considerations, if penalty rates are abolished tomorrow will the overall effect in this vast economy be to result in more people being employed or not". Now to spare you the trouble of again reminding us that its not that simple why don't you just tell us what you think the overall result will be (i) overall, it will result in more jobs (ii) overall it will result in less jobs (iii) overall it will remain the same or (iv) you just don't know the answer. You see when you tell us its not that simple and then put on the table general economic principles paired off with labored scenarios (such as charging $1000 for a cup of coffee) all leading to the logically strained conclusion that abolishing penalty rates will result in more jobs, one cant help but conclude this guy knows sh!t and is in fact advocating the abolition of penalty rates. So I tell you what Go ahead and clear it up for us. I've set out the usual 4 options above for you.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #129 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 2:46pm

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:20am:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:07am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive

get $75 per hour for doing night shift

Night shift rates are typically around 15% I find $75 an hour difficult to believe if attributed to penalty rates it would put his normal hourly rate at about $65 on a normal week day. It could be realistic for a Sunday night ?

Is he working this as an overtime shift ?

no not overtime its the shift rate, its a she and she keeps telling me how she hopes they put her on night shift instead of day because of the rate. Even at $65 per hours, its ridiculous to pay someone that much for holding a sign ... on this site they need about a dozen traffic controllers, at $65 that $780 an hour or almost $6300 per 8hr shift, and not a single iota of production form these people.

Does she need an assistant to carry the sign for her ?

no, big shopping centre that goes around a whole block with several intersections, driveways etc to control ...

Building industry award pays a lot better but also can be more dangerous.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #130 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 2:52pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits

No I suggest that they are smart enough to take a zero cost zero effort profit in favour of starting a turf war where all lose. I am actually accusing them of being fairly smart.

Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price

It is unaffected by the type of marginal realistic price variations we would be talking about if there was any chance of it happening.

On the topic there has always existed absolutely zero evidence to suggest that the removal of penalty rates would lead to any increase in employment.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #131 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 3:46pm

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 2:23pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:20pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:00pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

You're getting off track.

From the OP: "EMPLOYERS would hire more young workers within months if the federal government reformed workplace laws to free up penalty rates, Liberal MPs are claiming, as they renew a push for changes."

No, they wouldn't.

Employers would not hire more people to do the same amount of work.

They'd have a lower wage bill, and nothing else would change.

I never said I agreed. I did say, if you read the earlier pages that it wasn't so simple.

My comment from page two: "Your trying to simplify something that is not so simple. There are hordes of factors at play. Given the right circumstances the abolition of penalties could allow employment opportunities. In other cases it may not. Believe it or not, it could, in some cases be detrimental."

The responses of the last few pages are to those who seem to think that what the politician said is absolutely impossible in all cases. It's not.

Yes, yes silly person, we all know that there are many variables involved and yes every businessperson/worker and consumer have there own particular circumstances to contend with. That's a given in economics in case you haven't clicked to it yet.

You really are a tiresome twat. In view of the post I happened to be responding to, the comment was reasonable.

What the issue is and what everyone seems to understand but you is; "Given all those considerations, if penalty rates are abolished tomorrow will the overall effect in this vast economy be to result in more people being employed or not".

I didn't answer that. I responded to the supposition stated by the previous contributor. End of story.

Now to spare you the trouble of again reminding us that its not that simple why don't you just tell us what you think the overall result will be (i) overall, it will result in more jobs (ii) overall it will result in less jobs (iii) overall it will remain the same or (iv) you just don't know the answer.

Why should I. I've already stated the complexities of the situation. You me or anyone else on this forum does not know without proper analysis. You can only guess. I choose not to guess and state the reasons why.

You see when you tell us its not that simple and then put on the table general economic principles paired off with labored scenarios (such as charging $1000 for a cup of coffee) all leading to the logically strained conclusion that abolishing penalty rates will result in more jobs, one cant help but conclude this guy knows sh!t and is in fact advocating the abolition of penalty rates.

I made no such projection. I did however, allude to the possibility given the right conditions. If you want to believe they don't exist, then good for you.

So I tell you what Go ahead and clear it up for us. I've set out the usual 4 options above for you.

Why ? I don't need instructions from Sparty to add to the forum. The four options are useless anyway because it would require a sectorial analysis.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #132 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 3:54pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 2:52pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits

No I suggest that they are smart enough to take a zero cost zero effort profit in favour of starting a turf war where all lose. I am actually accusing them of being fairly smart.

Being a business owner myself I can assure you that I don't go knocking on the doors of my competitors and negotiate my sale prices. Neither do others come knocking on my door. Besides, collusive pricing is against the law.

Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price

It is unaffected by the type of marginal realistic price variations we would be talking about if there was any chance of it happening.

You don't know that for sure. Coffee was only an example. Penalties apply economy wide.

On the topic there has always existed absolutely zero evidence to suggest that the removal of penalty rates would lead to any increase in employment.

Unfortunately, most academic papers are promulgated by self interested parties. For every paper you find dismissing the penalties you'll find one supporting it.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #133 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 4:53pm

.. then why are we discussing the silly and totally unfounded idea that reducing penalty rates will lead to more younger person employment? It is obvious that either it will or will not, but nobody knows for sure, but any lever to gain a profit for business while we have an Abbott-style government in will do.

Common sense dictates that it will not. No organisation will sell more coffee than it does, therefore no organisation will employ anyone more than it has to, regardless of the rate of pay to workers.

It is painfully obvious that this is nothing more than self-interested rhetoric from the employers union....

Thank you all for your input.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #134 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 5:57pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 4:53pm:

.. then why are we discussing the silly and totally unfounded idea that reducing penalty rates will lead to more younger person employment? It is obvious that either it will or will not, but nobody knows for sure, but any lever to gain a profit for business while we have an Abbott-style government in will do.

Common sense dictates that it will not. No organisation will sell more coffee than it does, therefore no organisation will employ anyone more than it has to, regardless of the rate of pay to workers.

It is painfully obvious that this is nothing more than self-interested rhetoric from the employers union....

Thank you all for your input.

Penalties apply to more than just the coffee shop industry. The coffee was cited as an example. Still, you're right, without a proper analysis nobody knows. That's what I've been saying all along. The issues are not simple. The external factors go way beyond a simple pay scale variant. The variation on both externalities and internals across all industry sectors is large. One cannot simply say "It won't work" or even "It will work".

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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