Australian Politics Forum - The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates

Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #105 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:33am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive Cheesy

There's slight hope for you yet Smithy. Cheesy

whats the matter Swag, thrown you into a loop now that your pigeon holes don't fit?

I don't know anyone that isn't open to reasonalbe debate apart from those on the right. Calling for penalty rates to be abolished is not reasonible.

On the contrary it is the Left that won't budge on IR reform.

I am totally for common sense in this area.

There are many variables that may justify paying a higher rate of pay on Sunday's, at night, on public holidays etc. The left don't deal in variables though. The Left paints just about all situations with the one brush.

That is the "not reasonible" part Smithy.

"IR reform'? You mean IR change to suit business only? Are they so incapable of running their own business that they need Daddy/Mummy (DUMMY) government to intervene on their behalf and steal from their workers so they can make a profit?

Maybe they should consider taking a lower cut for themselves instead of wanting the whole pie.

How is the 'left' view that penalty rates apply to public holidays , shift work and weekends "applying the same brush to all"? Nobody is here demanding that penalty rates be applied to every working hour - the only demand here is for reductions to those with the lowest incomes through abolishing their penalty rates. Nobody here or elsewhere is demanding any "IR reform" to give MORE money - the only demand here is for reduction of income to some.

You don't see Tony or Andrei the Laugh a Minute or Fat Joe applying for "IR reform" to reduce their salary or perks payment for working odd hours etc, which is part of their salary and income. Same with all those on salaries, but, of course, as the 'better' class they should be exempt, right?

I'd hardly call that "IR reform" - just a demand from the ruling classes that their serfs be paid less.

$75 an hour to hold a traffic sign - SHOW ME! Maybe in the middle of the night on a public holiday in the pouring rain while underground in seepage and with the possibility of a falling roof..... as a casual......

Bullshit! (Just speaking plainly).... Grin

BTW:- What 'variables' are there in working on Sunday, at midnight or on a public holiday?

What part of 'penalty rates for out of ordinary hours, etc' do you not understand?

So - a parking cop should get paid penalty for working nights or Sundays, but a pub worker shouldn't? One rule for some, another rule for others?

A guy working underground in a mine should not get penalty for working Sunday midnight on Christmas Day - but a cop should, or a nurse, or a fireman?

Where do you live, Swag?

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« Last Edit: Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:59am by Grappler Racist Filth »

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #106 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:11pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

"IR reform'? You mean IR change to suit business only?

No. I mean reform for common sense or dare I use the word "choice". Shocked

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

Are they so incapable of running their own business that they need Daddy/Mummy (DUMMY) government to intervene on their behalf and steal from their workers so they can make a profit?

Maybe they should consider taking a lower cut for themselves instead of wanting the whole pie.

Many small business people already do. They may make a loss but they still pay their employees at their same rate. It works the other way too admittedly. They may be making a motsa and don't pay their employees any more.

Pay rates don't alter because business is bad do they, unless your income is dependent upon your bottom line like that of a small business proprietor?

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

How is the 'left' view that penalty rates apply to public holidays , shift work and weekends "applying the same brush to all"?

Because all business situations on public holidays , shift work and weekends are not identical.

Some businesses will make lots more money others not. The ones that don't are the ones that likely keep their doors shut.

The 'choice' factor is that when there are people 'unemployed' they may 'choose' to work a job on a Sunday at a single rate because they need a job and the pay that it represents.

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #107 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:21pm

But, Swag - wages are not dependent on the amount a business makes... they are part of the cost of running a business. If a business loses money on one day of the week that is a part of the deal to retain the customer base.

Chatting with a supervisor at the club where I work t'other night - I drive the courtesy bus - and the local servo where we get fuel is closed for three months.

You reckon the other two in town are staying open after 6pm to capture custom? Not on your life!

She used to run one of those with her husband - they stayed open from 6am to 10pm, and some hours are diamonds and some are stones.

That's the nature of small business.

Some days are diamonds.. some are stones. Yet accept that or leave it, but you do not demand that someone you employ carry the stones for you while you take only the diamonds. What you do do (sic) is you open at hours to suit clients so as to get them to come back in the knowledge that they will get their product when they want it. If Guiseppe Bloggovich across the road at the Parasite Cafe chooses to close on Sunday or a public holiday when the town is holding a festival... and you choose to stay open and pay the going rate to three girls to do the work while reaping coffee times five with a Sunday added rate..... that's his lookout.

Next Sunday Guiseppe opens as usual, but nobody goes there... he's not reliable enough....

"Oh - look - I didn't know the Parasite was open on Sundays! He must only be there today for some reason. Not many there, though. Drink up!"

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #108 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:26am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

Why not start at the top and cut CEO's rates and bonuses, then work your way down to those on the bottom. And I'm not talking 1% cut for the top of the pyramid and 25% cut for those on the bottom ... keep it fair

CEO pay rates are not set by IR law as far as I understand?

i don't care who sets them ... we were talking about cuts

Do I think that some of these people are paid ridiculous amounts? Yes, absolutely.

That is for the owners of the company that employs them. If you own shares go to the company AGM and protest / vote against the pay

and yet the people screaming for the cuts are those getting the million dollar salaries ..

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

f you want a different reaction from the left how about starting the conversations with something other than 'abolish penalty rates'?

Here's a reasonable question for you Smithy.

The poll asks

Quote:

Would you work Late night or weekends for single time

thats to simplistic a question, it will depend on the work

Currently the poll is 4 yes and 14 no.

because you asked the wrong question

I asked the poll poster (John S) a question but he didn't answer, so I'll ask you the same one.

If you were unemployed and were offered work at single time at night or on weekends would you take it or stay on unemployment benefits? Huh

When I started painting about 15yrs ago, I worked 12 hr days with no o'time, no penalties and no flexis or sickies

Lets assume for arguments sake that the pay is much more than what you'f get on Newstart. Sad

$50 per day, and yet the boss was still charging customers full price. the cost of the coffee (paintjob) didn't go down a single cent.

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Grappler Racist Filth Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 90883 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Reply #109 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:32pm Oh - the local servo closed down for refurbishment etc is owned and run by Indians... they work 6-10 every day, and it's a family business. the other two servos in town run 8 or 9 to 6.... not on Sundays. Anyone else on work value and ethic? And on who ends up making a profit?
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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #110 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:34pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

$75 an hour to hold a traffic sign - SHOW ME! Maybe in the middle of the night on a public holiday in the pouring rain while underground in seepage and with the possibility of a falling roof..... as a casual......Bullshit! (Just speaking plainly)....

nope, that was the night time rate she told me, she had no reason to lie

GC hasn't had a lot of rain lately and they're standing on the road, what roof? casual perhaps, she might very well be. ...

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #111 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

Where do you live, Swag?

As my profile states. The Illawarra NSW.

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

BTW:- What 'variables' are there in working on Sunday, at midnight or on a public holiday?

Some businesses get very busy on a Sunday others don't.

Location can be a variable.

A business may be located in a tourist town that gets a 'swag' of city day trippers. The local stores make a motsa, trade would be very busy and staff would totally earn a higher rate of pay.

Alternatively, a similar business in a boring old suburb won't get any extra trade on a Sunday. It may well be much quieter and the business owner may well make the decision to stay closed rather than open and pay a worker double time.

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:47am:

So - a parking cop should get paid penalty for working nights or Sundays, but a pub worker shouldn't? One rule for some, another rule for others?

A guy working underground in a mine should not get penalty for working Sunday midnight on Christmas Day - but a cop should, or a nurse, or a fireman

Depends upon the situation.

A cop working the Cross on New Years Eve is obviously on a more difficult job than a cop in a sleepy little town full of pensioners on New Years Eve. Pay rates should be different.

Nurses in major hospitals are generally super busy on Fri and Sat nights and can justify a higher rate of pay but a nurse in an aged care facility likely wouldn't experience any significant difference to work levels whether it was a weekend or not. Why should they both be paid double time?

Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder?

Huh

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Reply #112 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:42pm Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm: The Illawarra NSW. my home town region ... where abouts?
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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #113 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder?

does it matter? He is working underground, at midnight or on Christmas Day ... all times he'd rather be home with his family ... if the boss wants him to work those times, he should pay more.

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Our esteemed leader:
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #114 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:52pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder?

No. That's not what penalty rates are for.

Penalty rates are 'an acknowledgement that working unsociable hours can contribute to an unsociable life. You miss out on family events like birthday parties or joining friends for dinner. And children miss out seeing their parents or their grandparents who work unsociable hours. If you’re in a relationship you might see your partner less often.'

Nothing to do with productivity or how hard the job is.

Should you really be discussing penalty rates, if you don't actually understand what they are for?

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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #115 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

If you were unemployed and were offered work at single time at night or on weekends would you take it or stay on unemployment benefits? When I started painting about 15yrs ago, I worked 12 hr days with no o'time, no penalties and no flexis or sickies

by the way Swag, before you start with the 'it was my choice to work those extra hours'... it wasn't .. my options were that I did the overtime for free or I could leave .... and i wasn't the only one

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #116 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #117 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:57pm

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

The Illawarra NSW.

my home town region ... where abouts?

A few clues. We have a dog track and a race course... Wink

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder?

does it matter? He is working underground, at midnight or on Christmas Day ... all times he'd rather be home with his family ... if the boss wants him to work those times, he should pay more.

Only if there are not enough people to fill the job. Some people might prefer to work at those times.

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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #118 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:58pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:42pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

The Illawarra NSW.

my home town region ... where abouts?

A few clues. We have a dog track and a race course... Wink

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:44pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:38pm:

Is a bloke working underground on a Sunday, or midnight or on Christmas Day producing more? Is the job harder?

does it matter? He is working underground, at midnight or on Christmas Day ... all times he'd rather be home with his family ... if the boss wants him to work those times, he should pay more.

Only if there are not enough people to fill the job. Some people might prefer to work at those times.

they're the ones that aren't qualified

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #119 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 1:00pm

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

I'm suggesting $20 for the exercise because Smithy intimated that demand is unaffected by price way back on page 2. You seem to suggest that all business owners are lazy sods that would do jack to look at ways of increasing profits.

You're getting off track.

From the OP: "EMPLOYERS would hire more young workers within months if the federal government reformed workplace laws to free up penalty rates, Liberal MPs are claiming, as they renew a push for changes."

No, they wouldn't.

Employers would not hire more people to do the same amount of work.

They'd have a lower wage bill, and nothing else would change.

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Poll
Question: Would you work Late night or weekends for single time
Yes 4 (21.1%) No 15 (78.9%) Total votes: 19 « Created by: John S on: Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am »