Australian Politics Forum - The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates

John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #90 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive

get $75 per hour for doing night shift

Night shift rates are typically around 15% I find $75 an hour difficult to believe if attributed to penalty rates it would put his normal hourly rate at about $65 on a normal week day. It could be realistic for a Sunday night ?

Is he working this as an overtime shift ?

no not overtime its the shift rate, its a she and she keeps telling me how she hopes they put her on night shift instead of day because of the rate. Even at $65 per hours, its ridiculous to pay someone that much for holding a sign ... on this site they need about a dozen traffic controllers, at $65 that $780 an hour or almost $6300 per 8hr shift, and not a single iota of production form these people.

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crocodile

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #91 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:47am:

crocodile wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:27pm:

crocodile wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 9:15pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 8:59pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:53pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 1:46pm:

Penalty rates are in place right now, and we don't pay double for coffee on Sundays

Because the price of a coffee is subject to competition. There is no coffee regulator demanding that the price must be double on a Sunday because it's Sunday?

Because the price of a coffee is subject to competition.

More because they often are able to sell about 10 times the volume on a week end in the right location.

And even more if the price comes down.

I doubt it - Coffee drinkers buy coffee anyway, it isn't really a price decision and there is no likelihood that the price would come down at all.

Doubt if you want. If it's not a price decision why not charge $20 a cup.

It isn't a price decision within the normal market parameters. You have to get to silly numbers to make the point which in normal terms is not relevant.

In a shopping centre I will often get a coffee from the nearest retailer without even looking at the price, I do not think I have ever walked to the other end because the coffee is 20 cents cheaper there. If I cover extra distance or go to a specific outlet it will be because I like the coffee and probably do not even remember what they charge.

If you think you can sell your coffee for $20 when all your competition is at below $5 then good luck with that.

Next thing you will be saying is why not charge $20 for a packet of smokes _ whoops too late.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #92 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:52am

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

Indeed, that's why they will always resist putting on new staff. Much easier just to pocket the $$$ they would otherwise have had to pay in penalty rates. That's a significant win for them and they wont be risking that win by gingering up their competitor right next door by lowering their price.

Precisely.

If penalty rates were abolished, the owners would increase their profits straight away , by doing absolutely nothing different.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #93 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:53am

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:36am:

I'm not part of any problem or reason or excuse. I've made no statements as to whether or not I even support the proposals. I'm just telling you how it is.

I would think that those disagreeing with you believe that that isn't the way it is.

Realistically they will not reduce the price as to do so would mean their competition being forced to do the same thing which would make nobody better off except the customer. Most business try to avoid price wars as it isn't in their own best interests. By doing nothing they get to increase profits for all and that it obviously what would happen.

In cases where there is no competition they would still be unlikely to reduce the price as they already have the market sewn up while the argument for additional trade is possible though it would be heavily dependent on market saturation and other factors. Lower risk to just take the additional profit the lazy way and without risk.

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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #94 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:54am

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:52am:

ImSpartacus2 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

Indeed, that's why they will always resist putting on new staff. Much easier just to pocket the $$$ they would otherwise have had to pay in penalty rates. That's a significant win for them and they wont be risking that win by gingering up their competitor right next door by lowering their price.

Precisely.

If penalty rates were abolished, the owners would increase their profits straight away , by literally doing absolutely nothing different.

which would mean rents in shopping centres would go up by the same amount .... making the real beneficiaries of abolishing penalty rates not the coffee shop owner, but the ones who don't need it

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #95 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:03am

crocodile wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch. He has to drop his price. He will settle at the sweet spot where volume x margin yields the maximum profit. If there is any change in demand because of a price restructure the sweet spot will move.

By the way, do you think that the reduction in smoking over the years might just have a little bit to do with the price of a packet of fags.

At last, you're learning. The fella selling at $20 will make no money because his volume will be zilch

You are the one suggesting $20.

The problem isn't your market philosophy - it is just that it will not happen. They will just take the easy profit the lazy way with no risk associated.

If people are throwing money at you the best policy is to try to catch it.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 156299 Gender:	Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates Reply #96 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:04am John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am: ... and not a single iota of production from these people. Hey, that's a bit harsh. I've actually seen road workers hit by speeding and careless drivers. Without those traffic controllers, there'd be a lot more deaths and injuries. They do a good job.
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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #97 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:07am

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive

get $75 per hour for doing night shift

Night shift rates are typically around 15% I find $75 an hour difficult to believe if attributed to penalty rates it would put his normal hourly rate at about $65 on a normal week day. It could be realistic for a Sunday night ?

Is he working this as an overtime shift ?

no not overtime its the shift rate, its a she and she keeps telling me how she hopes they put her on night shift instead of day because of the rate. Even at $65 per hours, its ridiculous to pay someone that much for holding a sign ... on this site they need about a dozen traffic controllers, at $65 that $780 an hour or almost $6300 per 8hr shift, and not a single iota of production form these people.

Does she need an assistant to carry the sign for her ?

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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #98 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:18am

greggerypeccary wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

... and not a single iota of production from these people.

Hey, that's a bit harsh.

I've actually seen road workers hit by speeding and careless drivers.

Without those traffic controllers, there'd be a lot more deaths and injuries. They do a good job.

true, but a few well placed mobile lights with sensors could do the same thing

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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #99 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:20am

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:07am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:42am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive

get $75 per hour for doing night shift

Night shift rates are typically around 15% I find $75 an hour difficult to believe if attributed to penalty rates it would put his normal hourly rate at about $65 on a normal week day. It could be realistic for a Sunday night ?

Is he working this as an overtime shift ?

no not overtime its the shift rate, its a she and she keeps telling me how she hopes they put her on night shift instead of day because of the rate. Even at $65 per hours, its ridiculous to pay someone that much for holding a sign ... on this site they need about a dozen traffic controllers, at $65 that $780 an hour or almost $6300 per 8hr shift, and not a single iota of production form these people.

Does she need an assistant to carry the sign for her ?

no, big shopping centre that goes around a whole block with several intersections, driveways etc to control ...

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #100 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:33am

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:48am:

no not overtime its the shift rate, its a she and she keeps telling me how she hopes they put her on night shift instead of day because of the rate. Even at $65 per hours, its ridiculous to pay someone that much for holding a sign ... on this site they need about a dozen traffic controllers, at $65 that $780 an hour or almost $6300 per 8hr shift, and not a single iota of production form these people.

The rate seems to be between $17 Hr and $33 Hr .

NSW seem to pay penalty rates of 25% which would be about $41 on a rate of #33 per hour.

Higher for casuals.

This looks reasonable to me.

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #101 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:33am

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive Cheesy

There's slight hope for you yet Smithy. Cheesy

whats the matter Swag, thrown you into a loop now that your pigeon holes don't fit?

I don't know anyone that isn't open to reasonalbe debate apart from those on the right. Calling for penalty rates to be abolished is not reasonible.

On the contrary it is the Left that won't budge on IR reform.

I am totally for common sense in this area.

There are many variables that may justify paying a higher rate of pay on Sunday's, at night, on public holidays etc. The left don't deal in variables though. The Left paints justabout all situations with the one brush.

That is the "not reasonible" part Smithy.

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John Smith

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #102 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:56am

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:33am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive Cheesy

There's slight hope for you yet Smithy. Cheesy

whats the matter Swag, thrown you into a loop now that your pigeon holes don't fit?

I don't know anyone that isn't open to reasonalbe debate apart from those on the right. Calling for penalty rates to be abolished is not reasonible.

On the contrary it is the Left that won't budge on IR reform.

I am totally for common sense in this area.

There are many variables that may justify paying a higher rate of pay on Sunday's, at night, on public holidays etc. The left don't deal in variables though. The Left paints justabout all situations with the one brush.

That is the "not reasonible" part Smithy.

if you want a different reaction from the left how about starting the conversations with something other than 'abolish penalty rates'? Why not start at the top and cut CEO's rates and bonuses, then work your way down to those on the bottom. And I'm not talking 1% cut for the top of the pyramid and 25% cut for those on the bottom ... keep it fair

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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ImSpartacus2

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #103 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:15am

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:33am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 8:58am:

John Smith wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 10:59pm:

I agree with penalty rates, and would never propose abolishing them, but even I agree that some things need to be looked at

I was talking to someone who works as a traffic controller (they hold up the stop / go sign during road works etc)... one of the jobs they are working on is the Pacific Fair extensions on the Gold Coast. Because its a shopping centre and they want to keep trading, a lot of the work has to occur at night ... my traffic controller friend stands to get $75 per hour for doing night shift

I don't begrudge this person their money, good on them if they can get it, but $75 to hold up a stop/ go sign? Thats $600 per nioght, or $3000 per week (gross).

then people complain that property is Australia is expensive Cheesy

There's slight hope for you yet Smithy. Cheesy

whats the matter Swag, thrown you into a loop now that your pigeon holes don't fit?

I don't know anyone that isn't open to reasonalbe debate apart from those on the right. Calling for penalty rates to be abolished is not reasonible.

On the contrary it is the Left that won't budge on IR reform.

I am totally for common sense in this area.

There are many variables that may justify paying a higher rate of pay on Sunday's, at night, on public holidays etc. The left don't deal in variables though. The Left paints justabout all situations with the one brush.

That is the "not reasonible" part Smithy.

Yes I know what you mean Swag. Conversely I find that the right just wont talk about sharing their profits with their workers no matter how much they make and regardless of whether they've had a really good years. They're just so bloody minded about it.

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Swagman

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Re: The Liberal MP Was A Wing Nut On Penalty Rates
Reply #104 - Sep 9^th, 2014 at 11:26am

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

Why not start at the top and cut CEO's rates and bonuses, then work your way down to those on the bottom. And I'm not talking 1% cut for the top of the pyramid and 25% cut for those on the bottom ... keep it fair

CEO pay rates are not set by IR law as far as I understand?

Do I think that some of these people are paid ridiculous amounts? Yes, absolutely.

That is for the owners of the company that employs them. If you own shares go to the company AGM and protest / vote against the pay.

John Smith wrote on Sep 9^th, 2014 at 10:56am:

f you want a different reaction from the left how about starting the conversations with something other than 'abolish penalty rates'?

Here's a reasonable question for you Smithy.

The poll asks

Quote:

Would you work Late night or weekends for single time

Currently the poll is 4 yes and 14 no.

I asked the poll poster (John S) a question but he didn't answer, so I'll ask you the same one.

If you were unemployed and were offered work at single time at night or on weekends would you take it or stay on unemployment benefits? Huh

Lets assume for arguments sake that the pay is much more than what you'f get on Newstart. Sad

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Poll
Question: Would you work Late night or weekends for single time
Yes 4 (21.1%) No 15 (78.9%) Total votes: 19 « Created by: John S on: Sep 7^th, 2014 at 12:31am »